The Rime of the Ancient Mariner
POSTED BY: MalsNara
UPDATED: Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:09
VIEWED: 6609
PAGE 2 of 3
What flavour is it?
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhyianan:
Hmm, maybe watching this will stop me from reading this poem to the tune of gilligan's island. Darn literature teacher for pointing out that it fits the tune (which is also the way she told us to test if a particular poem is a ballad or not).
Then you probably don't want to hear me say that I sometimes get the Firefly theme song confused with the theme song from The Facts of Life.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Mal's 'Nara:
I don't think there was any deep hidden meaning in Joss' allusion to The Rime. The Op called River an albatross -- a bringer of bad luck and disaster -- and Mal pointed out that the albatross was actually considered good luck. The albatross only brings bad luck if you kill it (and by extension, the good luck it brings).
Not exactly a throw-away exchange of lines, by any means; but, not filled with deeper significance, either. It's possible to read too much into the writer's intentions...
On the positive side, another writer may have used a hackneyed old cliche ("You can have the girl when you pry my cold, dead fingers off of her."). Joss' true gift is the ingenuity he instills in even his throw-away lines.
But by the same token Joss chose to use the analogy in the script at all, when he might just as easily have chosen something else. The "significance" that I got from it however was pretty straightforward - it's making the link between sea exploration, solitude, etc. to space exploration, solitude, etc. Just another one of those particulars that was thrown in to reinforce the (forgive me) "last frontier" theme.
Don't make faces.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
marina replied:
Quote:
But by the same token Joss chose to use the analogy in the script at all, when he might just as easily have chosen something else. The "significance" that I got from it however was pretty straightforward - it's making the link between sea exploration, solitude, etc. to space exploration, solitude, etc. Just another one of those particulars that was thrown in to reinforce the (forgive me) "last frontier" theme.
...And on the flip side of that same token, maybe Joss called River and "albatross" exactly twice in the movie because he knew "Into the Blue" was filming across town, and on a release schedule similar to his own...
That Joss. He's such a punster.
On the other, other side of this contested token however (exactly how many sides has this token got anyways?), IF Joss intended deeper significance from this nuance, it would be fairly apt since -- like The Ancient Mariner -- Malcolm can truly never go home again. Mal is doomed to roam the 'seas' of space forever.
Ergo, by calling River an "albatross" the second time -- at the movie's conclusion -- Joss is signifying that Mal's kept his good luck charm alive and just perhaps earned a chance to go home (or make a new one of his own). We know he's a lubber by birth and rearing, so why did he choose a space mariner's life, never dwelling on dry land again?
Personally, I rather doubt that Joss would be quite this specifically subtle, even with his core followers. I suspect that it's more likely a convenient turn of phrase to call a bad luck-bringer an 'albatross', and then have the main character clarify that according to the poem, an albatross was traditionally considered good luck, not bad luck. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
And the tendency may exist to read significance into such devices that the author never intended. This leaving things open-ended enough so that the viewer comes to their own personal conclusions about the deeper meaning of the movie, is a hallmark of great films like "Blade Runner", the first "Matrix", etc., and it often stems from the throw-away lines. That the viewer may come to any of twenty differing conclusions is intended by the creator, more so than that one conclusion was intended by the creator. He/She simply casts the philosophical stink bait out upon the waters of consciousness, and then lets the little fishies of each individual's mind fight over it...
Pescadorially,
zoid
P.S.
See? I can argue both sides of just about anything. It's tough to live with myself. Really.
_________________________________________________
"Yo no soy marinero, soy capitán" -Capt. Mal 'Ritchie' Reynolds, (sorta), Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I recently found this poem in a book of poetry(of all places..) and read it(30 something odd pages...) but each paragragh had next to it a version interpreted in a more modern style, made it better in my eyes.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Edited to eliminate excuses for wrath.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
marina replied:
Quote:
Really?
You honestly believe that it's worth the time and energy to argue that the very basic correlations between the poem and the status of Serenity are "reading too much into it?"
Besides which, if other people want to discuss the poem and what THEY read into it, I don't see why you would continually insist on telling them they're wrong. You're correct in that there are a lot of things, in Serenity and pretty much any good book/song/film/series, that are open ended. Personally I think the authors would want there to be discussion and debate over those issues - otherwise, what is there to talk about?
With all respect (and I'm genuinely not trying to be rude), if you don't want to talk about the poem and the connections others made with the film, then maybe stop reading this thread? Because of all the things in the world, *possibly* reading too much into a literary reference seems like it wouldn't even make the list of things to worry about...
...And yet, here I am discussing the poem and the movie. Why are you so incensed? Is it that my opinion -- that the reference to The Rime is given strictly in passing and of no additional import -- is a valid (arguable) position? Or is it just that I disagreed with you that makes you angry?
If others argue that Joss' referring to The Rime was intentional of some greater significance, I readily admit that is a valid (arguable) stance. If I counter-argue that it is not, that is an equally valid stance, since we have no word from Joss himself about his actual intentions.
We are discussing the poem and the movie, so I haven't caused that discussion to come to a close by disagreeing. Furthermore, I haven't suggested that -- since your opinion differs from mine -- you go somewhere else to avoid a conflict of ideas. In other words, I have been respectful of the ideas of yourself and others, even if I disagree with them.
How can one benefit from the contrast of ideas without opposing viewpoints? Additionally, I made a fairly compelling argument for your position; but, you chose not to mention that in your riposte. Apparently, unless everyone agrees with your opinion then they and their arguments are worthless to you; you denigrate them.
So, whether you intended it or not, your 'Shut up! I don't want to hear your opinion because it disagrees with mine' attitude was rude, and wholly unjustified by any statements I made. I did not attack anyone else's opinion. So why did you attack both me and my argument with your counter-argument of 'I want you to go away'? Saying, "I'm genuinely not trying to be rude" doesn't cover the fact that you were intentionally rude.
...But, to put on the 'peacemaker hat' and not let this become some sort of personal war of words that is both uncalled for and to no one's benefit:
The goal of the sport of debate is not in determining who's the winner. Rather, it is to view both sides of the topic of investigation, and as a consequence, to derive a more well-rounded knowledge of the subject than would be possible from a myopic, one-sided discussion. My intent was to state my differing opinion, and then discuss both it and the differing opinions of others, thereby achieving a more rich discussion than simply, "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner references had an expanded meaning within the movie" and "Oh, I agree completely!", followed by, "Me too!"
Where's the quest for elucidation in that?
Respectfully,
zoid
P.S.
...And now, I depart the thread, per your polite invitation...
_________________________________________________
"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I think you misunderstood me, which I apologize for. I also think I misunderstood your earlier post, which I mentioned to you.
However, I did want to clarify that I don't actually HAVE an opinion on this (nor has the concept of "winning" anything entered my mind - this isn't a competition, and if it were, this wouldn't be the one I'd spend my time on). There have been a lot of snarky posters lately shooting others down, and for some reason I read your comment about others reading too much into it as a criticism. Apparently I was mistaken, and rather than wanting people to stop talking about theirs, you actually wanted to exchange opinions. My mistake.
Don't make faces.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Zoid, you ever been done debate class? I swear your sounding like my brother almost lol. He ended up taking to yrs during High school if I remeber correctly. Anyways just a quick wave from Japan. Thanks everyone for posting the lines of the poem and stimilating conversation / thoughts. As for my own opinions, well we`ll leave those for another time. Anyways keep flyen and stay shiny.
mata, Ookami yori
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
marina wrote:
Quote:
I think you misunderstood me, which I apologize for. I also think I misunderstood your earlier post, which I mentioned to you.
However, I did want to clarify that I don't actually HAVE an opinion on this (nor has the concept of "winning" anything entered my mind - this isn't a competition, and if it were, this wouldn't be the one I'd spend my time on). There have been a lot of snarky posters lately shooting others down, and for some reason I read your comment about others reading too much into it as a criticism. Apparently I was mistaken, and rather than wanting people to stop talking about theirs, you actually wanted to exchange opinions. My mistake.
Apology accepted; forgiven and all offenses forgotten. Understanding is all I seek.
I've reread my posts on this thread and detect no 'snarkiness' on my part. Disagreement, yes; but without denigrating the opinions of others. I do, however, completely understand your instinct to protect others, since I myself have done the same on numerous occasions on these boards. Some folks aren't 'happy' unless they are making others feel bad about themselves. What that says about these miscreants is unsettling; but I personally usually wait until they have called others 'dumb', 'stupid', or 'cattle'/'sheep'/other type of non-human animal before I go off on 'em.
Please accept my offer of unconditional peace between us.
Respectfully,
zoid
P.S.
...And good luck in S. Korea. Keep safe and well. I'm sure you'll find much to learn from and love about that ancient civilization.
_________________________________________________
"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME