AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!! *Spoilers*
POSTED BY: CB
UPDATED: Friday, March 19, 2004 16:50
VIEWED: 9589
PAGE 3 of 4
It occurs to me that we may all be looking at this the wrong way. Nowhere does it say the old ones are evil, just REALLY powerful. It could simply be a case that Illyria just doesn't care, considers herself above mortals and therefore killing mortals is no different to her than killing ants is to us. If you woke up a million years from now and the ants ruled the earth you would want to take it back too. Now that she has found herself alone and helpless in this world of ants she may now be looking at trying to live with the ants rather than wiping them out. Given the choice she would probably want to wipe us out but since she doesn't have any choice it's "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
"...we're still flyin'."
"That's not much."
"It's enough." Malcolm Reynolds and Simon Tam - Serenity
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I'm going to make this a two part reply. Bear with me.
First off, intent.
As I said earlier, intent does color one's actions, but the action itself is the basis for judgement of good or evil (or right or wrong). For example, when Wes stole Connor from Angel as a child, he was doing so to protect the child from what he believed to be a terrible fate. He then placed the child into the hands of Angel's enemy, thinking the woman would keep the child safe from the prophecy of the father killing him. First off, it is immaterial that the child went into enemy hands, or that Wes believed he was saving the child when in reality he was condemning him. Wes asked NO ONE for advice; not Fred, not Lorne, not Gunn, not Cordy. He went out of his way to hide what he found from the others. Instead of getting their opinion on possible solutions, he acted on his own. Kidnapping is a wrong act, could be considered evil even. Even if the child had been taken to a safe place, Wes did WRONG in stealing him from his family. His intentions were good, but his actions were very wrong.
Intent buys you very few good graces from the legal system, if they buy you any at all. And murder must be proven by prior actions. Evidence must be brought forward showing intent without a doubt, but it is PHYSICAL evidence. Witnesses saying "Well, he just seemed mean" don't count. They must establish, based on prior actions, that intent was there.
Hate to say this, as it can be misconstrued so badly, but evil as an action is relative to the one acted upon. To a she-wolf killing a prey animal for food, her action is right and good, because he feeds herself and possibly her family. To the prey, the act is an evil one.
I restate the definition found in Webster's again. It is not the only one, to be sure, but it is the one I have handy.
Quote:
evil: adj. 1 a)morally bad or wrong; wicked; depraved
b)resulting from or based on conduct regarded as immoral {an evil reputation}
2 causing pain or trouble; harmful; injurious
3 offensive or disgusting {an evil odor}
4 threatening or bringing misfortune; unlucky; disastrous; unfortunate {an evil hour
adv. in an evil, wicked, or offensive way Now only in hyphenated compounds {evil-hearted}
noun. 1 anything morally bad or wrong; wickedness; depravity; sin
2 anything that causes harm, pain, misery, disaster, etc.
SYN. bad
Part of the definition includes "morally bad or wrong." In that respect, the evil is defined as a moral choice. And it is hard to dispute that the morals of one person can differ from the morals of another. This can make an act evil based on the former's moral beliefs, but not evil based upon the latter's. However, "causing pain or trouble" seems clear cut. If someone causes pain for another, that act can be said to be evil.
This, unfortunately, runs afoul of other circumstances, such as when one visits a dentist (this is on my mind, as I have to visit the dentist shortly). The dentist does cause pain, but only as much as is required to help heal the patients teeth or gums. This act is not an evil one. It can be argued, however, that if the dentist relishes the pain, and even chose his or her profession for the simple act of causing pain in others, that it could be evil. This is intent figuring into the definition of an evil or good action. FlyingFree is right about intent to a significant degree, and I agree with him for the most part. But it must be stated that intentions are not always necessary for the determination of the right or wrongness of an action. Most often, actions themselves are the basis for judgement, as only an action or its outcome can be viewed or witnessed.
Now for the second bit.
Illyria not caring doesn't change how humanity, and Team Angel, view her actions. Those actions against humanity are still considered evil. Now as for herself or her allies (now deceased), those actions are viewed as right and just. Her treatment of humans is entirely justified, based on the belief that her welfare is more
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This conversation reminds me of a completely different episode form season 1. Remember the kid who was possessed by the demon and had to exorcized? When they found the demon after he escaped from the kid's body, the demon told Angel and Wesley that the body did things "not out of a belief in evil" and that the boy was the only thing the demon feared. It was as if the boy was more evil than the demon, who in his turn bragged about "corrupting men's souls". I just thought this added a new angle to the conversation. If the demon is evil, how is the boy more evil? What is the difference between doing evil things out of a belief in evil and doing them out of simple absence of conscience? I thought this applied pretty well to the Illyria issue.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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The fact is that this show *loves* to play around with the definitions of evil. Angel can go evil, and has done evil things while "good", Wes has done most assuredly evil things in the name of the greater good. Every character had evil in them, whether it be deliberate, or simple negligence that allowed evil to come to pass (hello, Charles).
So, I think we'll end up with one of two options: Wes actually manages to teach Ilirya good, and she joins the Fang Gang, or, he can't and eventually has to destroy the body of yet another girlfriend.
The question here, really, isn't whether she's evil. She is. There's no doubt. The question, as it often is on this show, is whether or not she can be redeemed.
"Once, just once, I'd like to be able to land someplace and say, 'Behold, I am the Archangel Gabriel.'"
"I fail to see the humor in that situation, Doctor."
"Naturally. You could hardly claim to be an angel with tose pointed ears, Mister Spock. But say you landed someplace with a pitchfork . . ."
-McCoy and Spock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Litwolf689:
Second, I dont think Fred is completely dead. Yeah she is gone but the team should be able to get her back. Like it was said in Buffy sometime, Willow was able to bring Buffy back because of unatural causes (she jumped into a hell portal). The reason it was so risky and not advised to bring Joyce (Buffy and Dawn's mom) back was because her death was natural. A health related death, like Joyce's (died of a brain tumor), was natural.
Fred was possesed by a demon with her organs liquified, that is really not natural. So I think they should be able to get her back.
She just cant be dead! I refuse to believe she's dead!!!!
It's extremely difficult to absolutely, definitively kill people with the precedents set by the show. As it is mentioned above, the usurper of the body of the most adorable character Joss Whedon has ever seen fit to write can control time, so that's always a possibility. Further, I'm wondering what Fred is doing in the alternate reality made in BTVS's The Wish. My money says she's looking insanely cute. It wouldn't technically be "our" Fred, but it would be Fred. Those are just two ideas I came up with really quickly, and I'm sure there are variations on the theme.
At least for now, Amy Acker is still on the show, but there is one thing Ilyria doesn't do: she doesn't wear that little pair of glasses I like so much.
I hope it's not too much to hope that ATS and Fred both live on.
Edited for grammar. Whoops.
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Here is an interesting thought:
The prophecy states that a hero will become human.
Joss could be using that to bring back Fred, since Illyria isn't human.
Maybe stupid, but just a thought.
But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RaptorX:
Here is an interesting thought:
The prophecy states that a hero will become human.
Joss could be using that to bring back Fred, since Illyria isn't human.
what an interesting thought. i need to ponder ...
anyone remember exactly what the prophecy says? something about a champion? would illyria qualify?
Huh.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RaptorX:
Here is an interesting thought:
The prophecy states that a hero will become human.
Joss could be using that to bring back Fred, since Illyria isn't human.
Maybe stupid, but just a thought.
But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.
Stupid? Not remotely. Had you not brought it up, and were it to happen, I would have never considered it. Can't you just see both Spike and Angel at the end. They've persevered, sacrificed, all in the name of becoming human just for Fred to be the one to become human. It would be a great moment for them both to decide they won anyway.
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well that theory is flawed the procphecy states the vampire with a soul will shanshu, live. shanshu means the vampire will live. it doesnt mean he will earn a human life for another it states he will become human. but i do think we will see fred back one way or another!
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I can't believe it hasn't occurred to anyone that Ilyria would simply ... lie. Tell an untruth. Fib. Fabricate. Lie.
She has to make Wes believe Fred is gone so that Wes will stop trying to kill or change her.
She's lying ... she's a fibber ... she's an untruth teller.
"Just keep walkin, preacher man."
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