AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!! *Spoilers*
POSTED BY: CB
UPDATED: Friday, March 19, 2004 16:50
VIEWED: 9589
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Originally posted by Litwolf689:
Excuse me while I run away screaming.
Not to be mean or anything but I really would be crush, horrified, and maybe even disgusted if the Angel Team took Illiria (sp? does anyone know how to really spell her name) onto the team.
First off, Illiria is evil. Period. I know Spike and Angel were able to come back after being evil but they got souls and Illiria is one of the Old Ones, the meanest demons ever.
Well this gets into definitions. Is evil evil because its a threat to you? Because of what it is? Or is there some sort of metaphysical evil essence that it possesses and can't get rid of?
Is something evil because of what it does or evil because it simply is?
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Fred was possesed by a demon with her organs liquified, that is really not natural. So I think they should be able to get her back.
"Flash fried in a pillar of fire, saving the world... I got better."
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She just cant be dead! I refuse to believe she's dead!!!!
It is a very interesting issue, and one I don't think Joss has really dealt with on the metaphysical level. What is this "soul" that Spike and he have, besides a glowy thing? How does having a soul make it any different. But more importantly, what happens to this soul when it is "consumed"
Is it destructable? What about its constituent parts? When you eat food, it does not go away, some of it becomes part of you, and a lot of it just gets changed into something else. Matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, just changed in form. So where do souls fit in, and what form was Fred's soul changed into?
(It should be pointed out that one of Illyria's powers governs time.
)Sorry for going all philosophical here.
"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"
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To continue the philosophy bits...
From Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition:
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evil: adj. 1 a)morally bad or wrong; wicked; depraved
b)resulting from or based on conduct regarded as immoral {an evil reputation}
2 causing pain or trouble; harmful; injurious
3 offensive or disgusting {an evil odor}
4 threatening or bringing misfortune; unlucky; disastrous; unfortunate {an evil hour
adv. in an evil, wicked, or offensive way Now only in hyphenated compounds {evil-hearted}
noun. 1 anything morally bad or wrong; wickedness; depravity; sin
2 anything that causes harm, pain, misery, disaster, etc.
SYN. bad
The word "evil" is used, primarily, as a descriptor of a person, place, or thing which is either: a) harmful or b)wrong. It is also used as a proper noun (ex. The First Evil), but much more rarely. Since the noun usage implies the use adjective or adverb form of the word, we will stick to the latter forms.
Evil is used to describe actions. For a being to be evil implies that the being is harmful, or immoral in some way, thus acting evil. For Illyria (will use this spelling from now on as it seems to be used the most often, and fits better to my mind) to be evil, it must act in a way considered evil. These actions MUST be, in some way, considered harmful or immoral. Evil is not a state of being, it is a description of an act or way of acting. To be evil means to act in a way considered harmful or immoral.
If the phrase "considered harmful or immoral" seems to give alot of leeway toward moral relativism, that would be because it does. Sort of. To discuss relativism here would require MASSIVE posting by myself. This isn't a theme paper, but a brief discussion of what evil is. Maybe we can make a post sometime later on the subject (evil Alliance/evil Serenity crew?). For right now, this is it.
What Joss has done previously in the Buffyverse (BV) would seem to point to the soul being some aspect of a person that allows them to choose between an evil or good act. The conscience if you will. (Interesting sidebar: Is Harmony evil?) The conscience, to briefly summarize the afformentioned dictionary, is the knowledge of right and wrong, with the urge to do right. There have been many within the BV who have souls yet do evil. They know right and wrong but choose wrong over right. Do they have a conscience?
Does Illyria have a conscience?
Does she consider right and wrong? Does she even KNOW right from wrong? Fred knew right from wrong and chose to do right (posses a conscience? Yes). Angel knows right from wrong and chooses right; Angelus knows right from wrong and chooses wrong. So the soul seems to contain part of the conscience that CHOOSES, that makes a CHOICE. It also seems to house some sort of spiritual "memory," for lack of a better term, the remembrance of self. Now here's the fun bit, does Illyria have a soul? What about Lorne?
More questions...mmmm, I smell a debate brewing, smell neurons firing. Smells good.
Edited to correct quotations.
Jayne: "How big a room?"
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Yeah, but what about the PTBs...are they still around or what ? Surely the 'Champion' still has some sway with them, do ya think ?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283
"...and my nose comes off..."
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Sociopaths have no conscience, they know the difference between right and wrong, they just don't care. Not all sociopaths do wrong though, there are other factors, the fear of getting caught for example. Harmony is still evil but she does good because she wants Angel and the gang to like her (and not kill her). Illyria is lost and helpless (still VERY powerful, but helpless nonetheless), she needs someone to show her how to exist in this new world, she is alone and lost. She will do whatever she has to in order to get that help, even if that means behaving herself. Since being evil gains her nothing (and a big motivator for evil is selfishness) except enemies (Angel, the senior partners, etc.) and she has lost all hope of having her kingdom back, there is a very good chance she will do what Wes wants in order to have his (and their) support. Harmony doesn't really care about any of the people they are helping but she does it anyways, Illyria may do the same thing. Evil has one big advantage over good, an evil being can act good as much as it wants and still be evil, a good being can't be evil all it wants and still be good. Illyria could spend the next thousand years saving helpless beings in distress for no other reason than it's entertainment value but she is still evil and could turn whenever it suites her, the same for Harmony.
"...we're still flyin'."
"That's not much."
"It's enough." Malcolm Reynolds and Simon Tam - Serenity
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Not really. I COULD be a immoral killer, but just want to fool everyone into thinking I'm a good guy. Even doing acts of kindness, acts of charity, and promoting the welfare of my fellow beings. Then, on my deathbed, I recant and say "I'm a viscious, immoral creature who would enjoy slaughtering your babies. AND I'VE FOOLED YOU ALL!" Except for the fact that I DID NO HARM, and even HELPED. Intentions buy you nothing. They may color your actions, but make no mistake, actions are what define you as "good" or "evil." If a good person can slip, an evil one can atone. These things are possible, especially in the BV (see the whole Shan-Shu prophecy thing for Angel). Atonement is not an easy act, but it can be done.
Jayne: "How big a room?"
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Atonement only comes with a true change of heart, intent. Doing good acts only for selfish purposes isn't good, it's selfish deception. Even the law (albeit the worst indicator for good and evil) is predicated on intent, if you meant to kill it's murder, if you didn't it's manslaughter, if your reason was good enough it's justified. If I save someone's life so that I can fool them into thinking I'm a nice guy, that doesn't make me a nice guy. If I save someone's life because I will be punished if I don't, that also doesn't make me a nice guy.
"...we're still flyin'."
"That's not much."
"It's enough." Malcolm Reynolds and Simon Tam - Serenity
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I don't have a reply so much as another angle to question. How do you integrate friendships and love between "evil" beings into this framework (besides as just good storytelling LOL)? Comradery, watching each others back, teamwork such as existed between Angelus and Spike in years past? It didn't seem to be just self-preservation and bowing down to someone that would kill you if you didn't stay in line. How about Drucilla and Spike? Could you say that "evil" is simply subjective ethics? How do you define ethics in this case? Just curious.
Burn the land, boil the sea...
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Just because you're evil doesn't mean you like being alone and you aren't capable of liking someone's company. You can't show off if there is nobody to show off to. Spike and Angel didn't like each other, their staying together was for the protection of the group, and the enjoyment of showing the other up. There is also the need for sex, having women in your group makes that a lot easier. A lot of criminals have the mentality that family is the only thing that matters, you protect family and screw everyone else.
"...we're still flyin'."
"That's not much."
"It's enough." Malcolm Reynolds and Simon Tam - Serenity
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Only problem with intent is that it can't be quantified. Only someones actions can be seen to be defined as good or evil. Intent can be infered from previous actions, such as the difference between murder or manslaughter, but cannot be clearly seen. I personally don't care if someone truly has the INTENT to be good, as that same intent can lead to evil actions as well as good ones. Thus that person is described as evil. For an example of good intention/evil act, the movie "Natural Born Killers" shows Woody Harrelson's character to believe the people he kills are possesed by demons (or are demons? can't quite recall). Thus his murdering of them is seen, by him, as a good act of removing wickedness from the world. People commit wrong acts for the best intentions every day. Conversely, good works are performed for the wrong reasons every day, as well. What a person thinks is largely (but not completely) irrelevant. Since I can't read minds, and thus know what someone is TRULY thinking, I must judge a person based on their actions.
As to saving a life to fool them, it's your later actions which define that original action. As for saving someone because of the negative consequences of NOT saving them, it is still a choice on your part. Granted, self-interest plays a very large part in it, but you could choose not to save them. You are right, you aren't a nice guy if you have to be coerced into saving a life. The fact that you HAD to be coerced, that you would choose innaction, is in itself wrong.
What I think is very important to understand is the difference between self-interest, and enlightened self-interest. The former promts actions which benefit the wants and needs of the self only. The latter promts actions which benefit the wants and needs of others as well as the wants and needs of the self. To be clear and complete, there are those who do good acts for the sake of doing them, but there are many more who do them because they benefit themselves as well as others. This is how a civilisation is formed.
If the actions Illyria takes from here on are to the benefit of not just itself (herself? did they say if Illyria was male or female anytime?), but others as well, then this can be called "enlightened self-interest." The acts are still good, and if Illyria continues, Illyria (gad, I need a pronoun here), could be considered "atoned," as Illyria (arrgh) would be behaving in a "proper" way.
Harmony tho...she's an interesting case. Would she commit evil without the restrictions placed upon her by Angel and Co.? That requires alot of others to comment upon her previous behavior to gain some insight, as I haven't seen but a few episodes of Buffy from season 4 and 5. Please enlighten me! (Honest questions here and in last post.)
And remember, what Rene Descarte ACTUALLY said was: "I drink, therefore I am!" Everyone keeps misquoting him.
Jayne: "How big a room?"
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I have to disagree, I think intent is what defines good and evil. Animals rape, kill and maim because it's in their nature to do so, they are not good or evil because they cannot form intent, they just do what they do. Animals are no more good or evil than a tornado that wipes out a city, without intent there is no good or evil. If you judged everything strictly by actions then all animals and forces of nature would be evil since they kill and destroy. Also in the Buffy/Angel 'verse beings are inherently evil or good regardless of action, it has been stated many times that someone/thing is good or evil in nature (ie. vampires are evil).
As for Harmony, she is evil, she joined Angel's team before and betrayed them all when the opportunity presented itself.
You are right, intent is not always easy to determine, but that doesn't make it any less the cause.
"...we're still flyin'."
"That's not much."
"It's enough." Malcolm Reynolds and Simon Tam - Serenity
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