What about the troops?
POSTED BY: Causal
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 15:17
VIEWED: 12314
PAGE 7 of 7
The constitutionality of the military action in Iraq is such an on going debate. It isn't illegal and it hasn't been declared as that in any courts, the legality of the action has yet been successfully challenged. The fact that dems today are hamstrung over how exactly to stop the war tells me that there isn't any problems with the POTUS's authority in declaring military action.
The War Powers act gives the POTUS unilateral decision in taking military action for 60 days before he (so far, no she yet, but who knows) has to seek congressional approval. Further, Congress in fact passed resolution in Oct 2002 to allow POTUS to use all force necessary to secure the US from all threads by Iraq and to enforce all UN council resolutions.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html
Besides, Congress really haven't "declared" war since WWII, all of them "wars" that US have fought have all really been military actions - all approved by Congress though.
I think in fact there were several challenges on the legality of the "war" and the courts found that Congress at the very least "implicitly" approves of the war thru repeated and continual appropriation of funding for all of these military actions.
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Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Don't throw that goddamned piece of paper in our faces, Frem. (Kidding- in the not-so-funny way)
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Is there an Offical, recorded Congressional Declaration of War on Iraq ?
No.
THEN THERE IS NO WAR, Constitutionally.
Peeps not exposed directly to abuse of power have a hard time dealing with how complicated and subtle it can be. I've been in contact with it on the court judge/police officer level, and it's quite surprising to see at first; it makes you feel like you're in a bad TV movie. You wanna ask them "So, you're a good guy? What are the bad ones like?"
Just tossin' that in Chrisisall
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
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If they killed unarmed and completely innocent babies who provoked no threat or violence at all (or any other type of war crime), then they should be tried and face whatever punishment is due. If they didn't do any of that, then they absolutely do not IMHO deserve anything but our humble respect for their dedication to serve this country rightfully or not in spite of the fact that people absolutely hated them... What dark times it must be to trump up enough courage to serve your own country when so many of us hate the people who do and to lay their lives down so that we can all have the freedom to glibly debate their mentality and morality for obeying the orders that civilians give them...
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Originally posted by SimonWho:Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I used to work exclusively with Vietnam veterans and their families. For all the traumatic stress they suffered during war, the most painful and enduring traumas occurred when they returned "home" to spiteful hostility. They expect the enemy to be hostile. They don't expect their fellow countrymen to be vile.
No matter how wrong a war is, these soldiers put their lives on the line. No one should ever cheapen a sacrifice like that.
Did any of those you treated confess to what would now be considered war crimes? Did you not think that if someone (as indeed many American soldiers were) actually did kill babies, that "spiteful hostility" is the very least they deserved?
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
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Think of it this way, if soldiers, and given our military in general, are free to act on their feelings - we would no longer have a civilian controlled military; we would officially have a well paid mob. This is how military coups happen, when the fellas/gals with the guns starts making decisions on their own about what needs to be done and not directly obeying civilian authority.
I do not want to live in that sort of place... As beautiful as Malaysia is, I'd just like to visit there when there isn't an active military coup going on.
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
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Soldiers are citizens first, soldiers second. Soldiers take a sworn oath "to protect and defend the US Consituttion from enemies foreign and domestic".
The Uniform Code of Military Justice requires soldiers to ignore illegal orders, and to arrest their coworkers and "superiors" for all crimes.
"I vas jus follwing ze odahs" is never a valid legal defense during courts martial, not at Nurenburg, and not in the Iraq Wars.
A sergent from my hometown testified in his court martial yesterday, as reqorted on network snews channels. His defense is that his troops massacred POWs, and then turned on him to save themselves from the death penalty. His defense is that his commanders gave them an unlawful order to "kill every military age male". But he never told his soldiers to ignore that order. This moron then testified that he covered up the crime by attacking his soldiers with his knife, and punched them in the face, to make it look like the POWs attacked them. In all courts, a criminal is guilty of murder, if he assists in any part of the crime, even when he did not pull the trigger himself (Charles Mansen was never accuses of committing a murder himself). Our local TV disinfo babes are treating this moron as a hero, trying to sell the sheeple to volunteer for the Afghan/Iraq/Iran meatgrinder....
www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=43345
My wife pointed out that in her NCO experience during Gulf War #1, her troops always listened to her rather than an officer, and she told them to ignore all those illegal orders from their commanders, or they would go to jail. Her commanders were all fired, and Dick Cheney offered her a bribe, er, job to work directly for him at the Pentagon. Congress and the IG found billions of dollars missiing during their audits into the govt contracts she identified. The USAF chief of staff was fired while leading Gulf War #1, becuase we filed felony charges against him for lying to Congress during the IG investigations. After she retired, the Veterans Administration, White House and Congress stole her pension, as perped against 95% of all retired disabled veterans.
www.piratenews.org/pentagon_whistleblower.html
If every soldier had the guts and brains to do this, there would be no more wars, and no more treason by the White House. Jr Bush is a convicted criminal alcoholic coke-addicted draft deserter, who is NOT "commander in chief", since Congress never declared war. Jr is just another govt employee, who can be arrested at any time for his 100,000s of felonies.
Any citizen has the authority to file criminal charges, or make a citizen's arrest, of any govt employee eyewitnessed perping a misdemeanor, or suspected or accused of perping a felony. I've done this many times as a civilian, and it always works against gangster employees of Gangsta Govt, including a Skull & Bones mayor/ambassador:
www.piratenews.org/affidavit-criminal-complaint13jun05.htm
I'm currently seeking the arrest of the billionaire mayor of Knoxville Tennessee, for turning over city court and replacing city police with a foreign corporation in AUSTRALIA. Many lawyers and state politicians are now joining my side in this battle, with 2 bills pending in the state legislature, quoting my proposed amendment to the city ordinance as I testified in city council.
www/piratenews.org/kill-robocops.html
I'm also seeking the arrest of the governor of Tennessee, along with the entire state police, for selling fake driver licenses to 250,000 illegal alien enemy combatants:
www/piratenews.org/warning-to-bikers-on-deals-gap-dragon129.html
USA is currently in a Civil War / Revolutionary War / World War, with the latest battles on 9/11/2001 and in the bombing/flooding of New Orleans, both crimes perped by the Bush White House and his royal cousins running the British Empire. The REAL war front is on the Mexician and Canadian borders, and the sea ports in USA (now run by the Communist Chinese military and British Empire in USA). Canada has been identified in participating in the 9/11 attacks against USA. These are t
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If you're just a guy trying to get a scholarship for school or support a young family back home, my unease about your involvement is tempered by an understanding about the difficulties of your circumstances - it's rough coming home to a country that distrusts you, and I've no doubt your experiences have been hard and there's pretty much no support or funding anymore for returning veterans.
You went over to fight in another country while the government was whittling away our "freedoms" HERE. It's classic misdirection, and you're the victim as much as anyone.
Thing is, while I can sympathize with you, I know there's bad mojo going on over there and all the hands are bloody. Chances are while you were over there you relied on the regular degree of piss-poor intelligence during action at least once. And intelligence is worse over there than anything I've ever seen, so when the intelligence is wrong, innocent people DO die.
Ultimately, I don't really want your protection. No one ASKED you to sacrifice for me or anyone. I don't understand how you can expect me to feel grateful for you soldiers lining up to go and get slaughtered. Water's rising, leadership's to blame, but y'all keep jumping in the pool.
And frankly I don't see how forcing our will on foreigners by gun point protects any of us anyway. I think even though you probably feel differently, you got yourself shot at and nearly blown up and I think it probably wasn't anything to do with preserving freedom back home OR abroad.
Lastly I think you've probably been trained to follow orders just a little too well. Sir.
So yeah, unfortunately military service is not the badge of honor it once might have been. Sorry you got that shock, we can be a little bit rude about this. But then, we also don't like being guilted or shamed or trampled by any high horses for a war none of us believed in or asked for, and while that may not be how you meant it, might've been how it came across.
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