General Discussions

Last Episode

POSTED BY: Lawman
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 15:37
VIEWED: 8484
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GWEK

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 8:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
ZEKE: I'm sorry to say that you're logic current logic is flawed.

Heart of Gold (in which Inara says she's leaving) MUST precede Objects in Space (in which Inara and Mal discuss her leaving).

That line was changed. Whether it was changed for the dvds or for tv we don't really know, but I don't count it one way or the other because there are two versions depending on the chronological order.

Which really begs the question "Did Joss know what order to put the episodes in when he was filming them?".

We actually DO know. The line in the DVD is the way it's "supposed to be", but Joss re-shot the scene for the televised version of Objects in Space because the real scene doesn't make sense unless HoG has aired first. Joss has cleared this up in interviews, and (I believe) the commentary for the DVDs.

There ARE two different chonological orders:

1) Firefly according to Joss (as depicted on the DVD set), in which HoG definitively precedes Objects in Space.

2) Firefly according to Fox, in which the point is moot, because HoG doesn't exist!

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

ZEEK

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 8:41 PM

See I guess the problem here is I think Joss is saying they're his definitive order based on what he had to work with. Where as I'm thinking the definitive order had the verse continued.

I think Joss ordered the dvd episodes in the best way to make it all flow fairly well. However, if he had been able to finish the season I think they'd be different. So, it all depends on what Joss was talking about in the commentary.

GWEK

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Well, it's obvious we're not going to agree, so I'll just present my final rebuttals before I bow out.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
It seems to be that the evidence for The Message being last boils down to two specific pieces (each, admittedly, very compelling):

1-Jayne's line about River.

2-The script numbering.

That, and the fact that the episode was shot last.

A fair point. However, the reality of filming a television program is that episodes are often not written in order and sometimes not aired in order.

Given the circumstances under which Joss was filming Firefly at that point (knowing full well that he might be cancelled), he chose to film out of order. I could be mistaken, but I believe HoG was ALSO filmed after OiS, but that doesn't place HoG after OiS. It only means that Joss felt that, of the last four eps, OiS was the most important to film, and the one that MUST be aired.

Quote:
With all due respect, your analysis of Mal and Inara's behavior might be flawed. But the line is the line, and think that's the harder "inconsistency" to explain. More on this in a minute.

As I've said before, there are a number of explanations for your inconsistency, the simplest being that the continuity folks screwed up.

I fully agree that my defensive argument is more speculative... HOWEVER when it's added to the fact that Joss STATES that the episodes are in the proper order on the DVD, that speculation becomes pretty solid, I think.

Quote:
Now, I'm not going to let you drag me into a discussion about the proper placement of Trash, because that's beyond the scope of the discussion. We're discussing the question of which is the last episode.

The proper placement of Trash is pivotal to a discussion of which episode is last because 2 out of 3 pieces of evidence supporting The Message as the final episode (script numbering and filming order) also dictate that Trash fall between Objects in Space and The Message.

Basically, not to sound like a jerk, while I can't use the placement of Trash (which, by virtue of it's content, I argue MUST occur chronologically before OiS) to support my own argument, I *can* use it to refute your argument by taking away two out of three of your pieces of potential evidence.

Again, that leaves ONLY Jayne's line (for which there are multiple explanations) as "hard evidence" in support of The Message-as-later theory.

(Apologies, by the way, for sounding like a broken record, but I'm trying to state things logically).

As for Jayne's line... Again, I hope I don't sound like a jerk here, but as the head writer for a virtual continuation of Firefly, we often find ourselves in a comparable position to that of a crew working on a "real" program: writing and producing multiple episodes simultaneously and out of order. Minor slip-ups like this happen all the time. Same thing happens with regular TV shows and movies. Writers (or ad-libbing actors) put in lines based on their own knowledge, and continuity glitches occur. Had the episode actually been AIRED, it's quite possible it would have been caught (assuming it was an actual writing gaff).

Quote:
So, as I see, you may be misinterpreting Mal and Inara's interaction. They're cordial because they still have to be (they're stuck on the ship together, after all) and not because Inara hasn't decided to leave yet. So between the Jayne/River thing and the Mal/Inara thing, the easier resolution seems to be to put them in OiS-TM order and revisit one's interpretation of Mal and Inara's interaction.

You may be all kinds of right... but I don't think so, and we're now in the realm of dueling speculations. Speaking as a writer (and professional editor) it's a LOT easier for a small mistake (such as a funny, throwaway line) to be made and overlooked than for a large one (such as the tone of the interaction between two main characters in two different episodes, once of which focuses on them).

Quote:
There are hard pieces

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GWEK
Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
See I guess the problem here is I think Joss is saying they're his definitive order based on what he had to work with. Where as I'm thinking the definitive order had the verse continued.

I think Joss ordered the dvd episodes in the best way to make it all flow fairly well. However, if he had been able to finish the season I think they'd be different. So, it all depends on what Joss was talking about in the commentary.

Joss has stated that the order on the DVDs is the order in which he intended them to air. Not a lot of wiggle room there, I think.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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STARRBABY
Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
(what's RWED, by the way?)

It's where we discuss "real world" issues. People get downright mean there. It's further down on the board if you care to join us.

*mumbles under breath* still can't believe noone else has brough up that Simon got shot in OiS.

*smiles* Okay, I'll hush up now.

GWEK

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Starrbaby:
Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
(what's RWED, by the way?)

It's where we discuss "real world" issues. People get downright mean there. It's further down on the board if you care to join us.

*mumbles under breath* still can't believe noone else has brough up that Simon got shot in OiS.

*smiles* Okay, I'll hush up now.

Ah, okay. Silly real world... :)

As for Simon getting shot... Good point! While they don't always "carry forward" injuries, they DO try to do it more than on a typical TV show. So while it's not a slam dunk, I think it's more support for the OiS-as-chronologically-final argument.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

WHOISRIVER

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:53 PM

Quote:

Joss has stated that the order on the DVDs is the order in which he intended them to air. Not a lot of wiggle room there, I think.

Quoted for truth.

-gossi

NCBROWNCOAT

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:09 PM

Has anyone noticed that at the end of OIS that River and Kaylee are playing jacks with a ball that could be a planet? Especially the way River looks at it in the end when she holds it up to her face and really looks at it.

Foreshadowing Miranda? I think so-so it ties right in with the BDM.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

ZEEK

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Joss has stated that the order on the DVDs is the order in which he intended them to air. Not a lot of wiggle room there, I think.

First, I'm not calling Joss a liar. Second, Joss is a liar. I seem to remember interviews where he said he was making a Wonder Woman movie. Shows about how much we can trust this guy.

Seriously I'm going to call this George Lucas syndrome. It's where a person over thinks their own work to the point of changing their original idea. That's what I think happened with the last episodes. Now whether Joss is really talking about these episodes or the earlier episodes that Fox really messed with is open to debate, but I think 2002 Joss would have some disagreements with present Joss on the proper order.

I guess it just seems apparent to me that Joss put OiS last because it was a good ending episode. Though it obviously doesn't fit there due to Jayne's line about the mind reading genius. No quotes from Joss are going to change that.

CAUSAL

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:42 AM

See? I told you we weren't going to agree!

*victory dance*

*ahem* Sorry about that.

"RWED" is the Real World Events Discussion Forum on these boards. Good heavens, but things get nasty in there.

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