Last Episode

POSTED BY: Lawman
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 15:37
VIEWED: 8484
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DAVESHAYNE

Monday, March 12, 2007 11:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I mean they even changed the episode for the dvds to put in the part about Inara leaving instead of the way that conversation went when the episode aired.

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. They changed that scene in the aired version because Heart of Gold didn't air and Inara leaving all of a sudden didn't make sense out of context. Now it is certainly possible that had the series continued that Trash and The Message might have come after Objects in Space - perhaps with material relating to Inara's decision to leave Serenity worked into the shows - but also possibly not. Firefly wouldn't be the first show to shoot episodes out of order.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

CAPTAINCOUPI

Monday, March 12, 2007 11:38 PM

Shouldn't this be over with the Episode Discussion threads?

TDBrown's right. Joss put the episodes in the correct order in the box set.

The Message clearly comes directly after Trash as there is all the talk about fencing the Lasiter. Inara seems at ease with the crew and Mal and even tries to take an active part in fencing the goods.

Then we get Heart of Gold. It is the events in this episode including Mal and Nandi's little liaison that pushed Inara to leave.

Finally Objects in Space. Inara has made the decision and Mal knows but the rest of the crew has to be told yet. We see their discussion about this in the teaser. We also know that this is the last episode as in the commentary Joss talks about this being the point where River is finally accepted by everyone despite the suspicion that she is a reader and possibly a weapon of the Alliance.

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LAWMAN

Monday, March 12, 2007 11:42 PM

ois does make some sense being last episode. i've been watching the series over and over again. i need to redouble my efforts and concentrate more on the conversations between crew in ois again. thanks for all the comments.

money was too good

DARKJESTER

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:14 AM

I guess I take the the DVDs at face value, and see "Objects In Space" as the final episode. Inara's comment about leaving at the end of "Heart of Gold" plays into her "I just don't want to draw this out" and Mal's "Have you decided when you'll tell the others?" at the beginning of "Objects in Space".

That exchange wasn't in the broadcast version of the episode, because no-one had heard her say "I'm leaving", because no-one had seen "Heart of Gold".
Instead, before the "I'm a big girl, just tell me" line, Mal and Inara are talking about her not being able to get any work of late and it being Mal's fault (kind of like in Trash) and she comments "You are unreal! I don't know why I haven't left already".

And I see "Objects in Space" as being where River's position in the crew is finally resolved with her scene with Mal after he disposes of Jubal Early. After she asks "Permission to come aboard?" (showing her lucidity, and acknowledging his captaincy) he banters with her, then gives her an assignment (like a member of his crew) to go and see to her brother. And we see her repaired relationship with Kaylee in their game of jacks. Joss wrote and directed it, and it seems to be a perfect ending of the story arc. And, unfortunately, the series.

Edit to add: advice to everyone - try not to take half an hour to post a response! You'll find others have made every single point you're making ten minutes before you!

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

http://www.fireflytalk.com - Big Damn Podcast

CAUSAL

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainCoupi:
TDBrown's right. Joss put the episodes in the correct order in the box set.

Negs, sorry, they're not in 'Verse-chronological order on the box set. The reason why OiS is the last episode on the box set is that it was the last episode aired. The last episode they actual shot was, indeed, The Message (which is how they got away with so much silliness during filming--they already knew they were cancelled, so what the hell). By that point, however, they had one more open slot, and a number of episodes (four, to be exact, plus the pilot) in the can but unaired. So Joss decided to air OiS because he felt that that one gave the best closure. I think that the discussion of this point takes place on the OiS episode commentary, but I'm not completely sure. We've discussed this before, though, and hopefully somebody else has a better memory than I do and can give the sources for all this.

Quote:
The Message clearly comes directly after Trash as there is all the talk about fencing the Lasiter. Inara seems at ease with the crew and Mal and even tries to take an active part in fencing the goods.

Circumstantial evidence at best. Mal talks about the "goodnight kiss" in Heart of Gold and that don't mean the two of them are chronologically contiguous. Then there're Niska's appearances in Train Job and War Stories (also not consecutive episodes) and Badger in Serenity and Shindig (again, not consecutive). You can just as easily make a circumstantial case for my order: Jayne calls River a "mind-reading genius" which only makes sense if The Message comes AFTER OiS. As Inara says, the Lassiter is universally known; mayhap they're having more than an episode's worth of trouble trying to fence the dang thing. Plus, who says Inara ain't having second thoughts by The Message? Or how about this: maybe her offer to help fence the Lassiter is a fence-mending ploy to make it so that she and Mal can at least be civil until she finds her port.

Quote:
We also know that this is the last episode as in the commentary Joss talks about this being the point where River is finally accepted by everyone despite the suspicion that she is a reader and possibly a weapon of the Alliance.

Which, as previously mentioned, is why he decided to make OiS the last episode to air on Fox. But that don't mean it's last in 'Verse-chronological order. I'll try to dig up the previous thread.

Don't feel bad, most people disagree with the right viewing order, and some even disagree about the right 'Verse-chronological order, so I'm not sore that you disagree.

Course, you're still wrong.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add: the script numbers are in the 1AGE series with the following order:

"Serenity" 1AGE00
"The Train Job" 1AGE01
"Bushwhacked" 1AGE02
"Shindig" 1AGE03
"Safe" 1AGE04
"Our Mrs. Reynolds" 1AGE05
"Jaynestown" 1AGE06
"Out of Gas" 1AGE07
"Ariel" 1AGE08
"War Stories" 1AGE09
"Heart of Gold" 1AGE10
"Objects in Space" 1AGE11
"Trash" 1AGE12
"The Message" 1AGE13

Far as I'm concerned, that's pretty compelling information as far as episode order goes. Don't make much sense to number them all out of order, now does it?

Of course, there are various theories floating around (though if you can muster up more compelling evidence than episode numbers, I'd like to see it).

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Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

TDBROWN

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:01 AM

Simply put, the order in which they were filmed is not the same order in which they were to be shown (iow, the story arc). Joss said this, Tim Minear said this, so it's good enough for me.

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

CAUSAL

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:55 PM

No offense, but when Joss say the only reason the message is last is because it's the one he wanted to air last, that doesn't mean that it's last in 'Verse-chronological order. Looks like we'll have to disagree--but I wish Joss would come out in some official capacity and tell us what the 'Verse-chronological order is.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

ZEEK

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:02 PM

So the reason I say it goes Objects in Space, Trash, Message, Heart of Gold is because of the development that occurs in each. In Object in Space the Jayne finds out about Mal's opinion that River is psychic. The crew also comes to terms with River and accepts her. We even see how Kaylee has gotten over River killing some of Niska's men by the end of the episode. During The Message, Trash and Heart of Gold we never see Kaylee acting scared by River. In Trash they steal the laciter which has obviously happened before The Message. Which at least means Trash is earlier than The Message at some point. The only telling thing in Heart of Gold is that Kaylee is OK with River being in the room with a pregnant woman. In Trash it's obvious that Inara hasn't told Mal she's leaving. She's looking for work and Mal even says "so you're part of the gang now?". Doesn't seem like something he'd say if he expected her to be leaving. So, that puts Trash before Heart of Gold.

Basically the rules we have from all of these is:
Trash before The Message
Trash before Heart of Gold
Objects in Space before The Message
and the weak reasoning for Objects in Space before Heart of Gold

Let's even drop the last rule...then the possible orders are:
Trash, Heart of Gold, Objects in Space, The Message
Trash, Objects in Space, Heart of Gold, The Message
Trash, Objects in Space, The Message, Heart of Gold
Objects in Space, Trash, The Message, Heart of Gold
Objects in Space, Trash, Heart of Gold, The Message

One of these should be right. The one with the best flow to the episodes to me is Objects in Space, Trash, The Message, Heart of Gold

GWEK

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:16 PM

The Message and Objects in Space create an interesting conundrum... because of gorram Fox.

Joss and Co typically break their seasons up into three acts (like most shows), and OiS is clearly the end of "act two".

"Act One" begins with the pilot (which shows us how the passengers got on the ship) and ends with Out of Gas (which shows us how the crew got there). It's about introducing us to folks. (It's no accident that the other episodes deal thematically with some of the primary conflicts of the series: how far Mal will go for the Tams, the Mal-Inara dynamic, Jayne and the nature of heroism).

"Act Two", on the other hand, is to some extent about exploring River. We begin with Ariel and end with Objects in Space, which are two big "River reveals". In both, we find out a considerable amount about the mystery of River. If you watch the episode (and, particularly, listen to the commentary) it's clear that Objects in Space is intended as an "ender" episode. On the surface, it's about a bounty hunter catching up with the crew, but it's REALLY about River connecting emotionally to the crew (and particularly to Mal). Joss states this plainly in the commentary.

So OiS was pretty clearly intended to be the "act two" finale, bookending with Ariel. Had the show not been cancelled, we would have gotten a "bigger" final episode to end "act three" and the season (presumably some version of the comic book miniseries, Those Left Behind... which serves as an excellent--if somewhat rushed--finale for the season).

Since there was no "act three" to the season, however, OiS becomes the de facto SERIES finale, and The Message becomes an oddity.

Had Joss been given a full season, I suspect that The Message may, indeed, have followed OiS as part of "act three" of the season. But since there WAS no act three (ie, "post-OiS"), it has to become part of act two (ie, "pre-OiS").

While there are bits of potentially contradictory dialogue, it's my firm belief that this was the result of Joss trying to put together a season on the fly and KNOWING that if he was cancelled, he wanted to end with OiS. He shapes everything else around that stone.

Contradictory dialogue aside, I think there's very solid circumstancial evidence that The Message should precede OiS AND that there should be additional episodes between them (had the series continued).

Take a close look at the Simon-Kaylee dynamic in OiS. There's something amiss there in that there appears to be an escalation of comfort level between the two of them. Consider, for example, this bit of the script:

SIMON
Naked, yes, and on top of the statue of Hypocrates, and -- Can you just picture me?

KAYLEE
Naked? I'll have to conjure up -- it'll be tough.

He smiles at her, and she taps his chin with her toes playfully.

Strikes me that there's been an escalation of their relationship that we haven't been privy to. While awkwardness is again introduced later in the episode, the dynamic between them in The Message would be step back from where they are in OiS. If you consider things in DVD order, though, the progression of their relationship from The Message to OiS (via some "missing footage" makes more sense.

In the end, though, regardless of any dialogue quirks, Objects in Space is the last episode... because Joss said it is! (Although he DID also say that it was very appropriate for the crew to film The Message last, because their final bit of filming was the funeral).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

CAUSAL

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:39 PM

Interesting theory, Gwek. I think you may be on to something with the 3-act theory. I think you're right: I think that The Message was probably intended to kick off Act 3. But if the original intention was to have The Message kick off act 3, that means that in 'Verse-chronological order, The Message comes last. We can talk 'til we're blue in the face about how it's more satisfying with OiS last, or how Joss wanted OiS to be the last aired episode. But that won't change the 'Verse-chronological order one tiny bit. What I mean is this: imagine you're one of the nine characters. What order would you experience the episodes in? This is what I intend by "'Verse-chronological order." How to determine that? Obviously, we can't go strictly by the airdates: Fox screwed that royally (they even aired the gorramn pilot last)( FOX). So the mere fact that OiS was aired last doesn't mean we can't point to OiS's status as the last episode aired and claim that that makes it last. We also can't say something like, "it's the more satisfying ending"--because satisfying-ness (ouch, my grammar) has nothing to do with the 'Verse-chronology. There there's the argument "it's the ending Joss wanted for the series"--but what that means is that Joss had 5 episodes in the can, and knew he could only air one more. So he picked the one that gave it the best sense of resolution, and that was OiS. But this also doesn't mean anything for the 'Verse-chronology. I'm aware that OiS has a better sense of "tying things up" but golly, what does that matter. If it's the case that Jayne's "mind-reading-genius" was prompted by the events of OiS (if, for the sake of argument) then no matter how nice a sense of resolution OiS has, it still won't be after The Message in 'Verse-chronological order.

And anyway, as a five-year fan of Firefly, given the history of the show and the movie and the fandom, I feel like The Message really delivers the more satisfying last note: up-in-the-air, waiting-for-the-other-shoe, and, above all, deep, deep sadness.

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Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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