Hurtful Whedonesque Thread
POSTED BY: CaliforniaKaylee
UPDATED: Sunday, March 4, 2007 01:17
VIEWED: 11238
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I'm posting this here because I don't have a Whedonesque account. I know there's a lot of cross-posting between here and there, so maybe a mod from there will see this here.
I'm so sick about this I haven't been able to think about anything else. The thread is here: http://whedonesque.com/comments/12598 It started out as a link to more praise for Firefly and for Browncoats specifically from Orson Scott Card -- a man whose huge success as a science fiction author is apparently negated by his membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormons), according to the Whedonesquers. Orson Scott Card (OSC from here on out) was featured in Done the Impossible, and he has praised Firefly, Serenity, and Joss on multiple occasions.
But the thread on Whedonesque quickly turned to why OSC is a "monster" because of his religious beliefs, with many posters -- including several of the moderators!! -- saying they would not buy any product produced by a Mormon-homophobe like OSC.
I am so angry, I'm shaking right now. I am so hurt, that I don't think I will EVER read Whedonesque again.
Let me explain. I was raised in the LDS church. By the time I was 15, I had realized it wasn't the right fit for me, and have spent most of my adult life working to find a religion that fits for me. I am in the process of converting to Judaism. But my entire family -- my parents, my five siblings, my brother's wife, her entire family, my mother's five siblings, her parents, and my 27 first cousins -- are all Mormon. My parents and my siblings are all huge Browncoats. It was my dad who converted me! My grandmother watched a few episodes over Christmas, and really enjoyed them. At least half of my mother's siblings and nieces and nephews are well on their way to becoming Browncoats. (And don't even get me started on the 30+ people my brother has turned into Browncoats at BYU!!!) They all have no problem being active, faithful members of the LDS church, and Browncoats at the same time.
Do the posters Whedonesque hate my family? Should my family return all their copies of Firefly, Serenity, Those Left Behind, the Firefly and Serenity Companions, t-shirts, Done the Impossible, Jayne hats, etc etc?
The crux of the hate spewed forth by the Whedonesquers in the general direction of OSC seems to be centered on the LDS church's view on homosexuality. Like most other conservative, orthodox religions, Mormons think that the act of homosexuality is a sin. I do not agree with them, and have had many fights with family members over issues such as gay marriage. But I understand that their viewpoint comes from a belief in God and a belief in the Bible. I have never seen any of my family members act in a hateful way towards someone who is gay, and all of my siblings have had gay friends at one point or another.
Let me reiterate that this is not a view unique to the LDS church. Many other Christian groups have the same point of view. Orthodox Judaism also believes that homosexuality is a sin. What I know of Islam leads me to believe that Muslims would also deem homosexuality a sin. And yet Orson Scott Card is singled out by the posters at Whedonesque. Why?? Do they think he's the only Mormon who is a fan of Firefly? Do they think he's the only Conservative who is a fan of Firefly?
Did they miss that one of the nine main characters is a Christian priest, for crying out loud?!
Now, I understand that for some people, any point of view that sees homosexuality as wrong or sinful is hurtful in and of itself. I can respect that. I also understand the personal decision to abstain from buying things from people who express views contrary to one's own. I respect that, and have done the same myself, on occasion.
But why the push back against people who genuinely enjoy and cherish Firefly? Why the hateful words towards someone who is well-known in the sci-fi community, and who frequently praises Firefly? I can understand disagreeing with OSC's religious v
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Here here CK. I live in Utah and many of my friends and neighbors are Mormons. Just like any other Christian religion they view homosexuality as a sin. Whether or not that is the right viewpoint, if people at Whedonesque truly feel that way they are welcome to that viewpoint, but targeting a group of people and believing them to be "evil" or stupid based on their views could apply to being gay too. Hating someone for being mormon is exactly the same as hating someone for being gay. It's an irrational prejudice that condemns all people in that group without any basis for that condemnation...Shame on those posters for furthering HATE!
"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs
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CK,
Well, there's just too much there to reply to it all. Let me start by saying how sorry I am that you are hurt over this. I share your frustration over the situation. I happen to be a fan of OSC's work (from Ender's Game on forward). I am certainly pleased that he is a fan of Firefly/Serenity. Obviously, I don't think that the man is a monster. I have noticed, though, that fans of Joss Whedon's work are disproportionately from the left end of the political spectrum (though you will find a few who brave the taunting and the insults to remain part of the fandom). For the most part, folks keep their opinions to themselves, even if they disagree with each other. But unfortunately, the most radical tend also to be the most vocal. And the most radical are willing to shout down any dissenting voice in the interest of progressive thought without some much as a nod to real tolerance. As far as I know, OSC hasn't made any statements that would indicate a hatred for homosexuals, nor called for any persecution against them. But in our cultural environment, especially given the lean of these boards, an opinion like his is bound to get attacked. You are absolutely right: hating someone for their religion is no different from hating someone because of their sexual orientation. Unfortunately, some people don't see it that way. I've been told by an individual on this very board that he'd enjoy the sight of Christians burning at the stake. Fair? Heck, no. But again, the most radical are the most vocal. Just keep in mind that the silent majority are behind you. Most of us can disagree and be civil--I'm sorry that you encountered some that couldn't.
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Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
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Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
Just like any other Christian religion they view homosexuality as a sin.
I just would like to point out that you can still love people whose behavior you don't approve of. As a Christian myself, I'm pretty sure that we're supposed to be following Jesus' example (even if many of us don't do so very well), and Jesus most certainly loved people, even those whose behavior he would have considered morally wrong.
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Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
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Thank you both for your replies, it's nice to know I'm not alone in disagreeing with the majority of the posters on that thread. And that was exactly my point, Casual: you can disagree with someone's actions, but still love them. You can see a person's actions as sinful, but still recognize that they are a child of God. You can say "live and let live", but still vote against gay marriage (or abortion rights, or prayer in school, or whatever). It is possible to disagree with someone and respect them at the same time.
I disagree with my family's views on homosexuality, but I still love them. And I adore the fact that they are Browncoats. I just couldn't believe that anything could possibly trump a love of Joss Whedon's work in the eyes of the Whedonesque posters. Apparently that's not always the case.
~CK
You can't take the sky from me...
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As with this site, on occasion, cliques of regular posters sometimes work each other up into a frenzy, like berzerkers, and collectively acheive a fanatic concensus that few members would agree with when spoken to singly.
One little bomb gets dropped and the next thing you know, it's raining like a plane load of ping-pong balls at a Captian Kangaroo convention.
I hope your post is noted, and the ramifications considered by the group.
Also Mozel tov! May this new chapter in your relationship with God be beneficial to All.
--WhoDied
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Real magic happens on the Q.T.
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhoDied:
As with this site, on occasion, cliques of regular posters sometimes work each other up into a frenzy, like berzerkers, and collectively acheive a fanatic concensus that few members would agree with when spoken to singly.
One little bomb gets dropped and the next thing you know, it's raining like a plane load of ping-pong balls at a Captian Kangaroo convention.
Ha! This is the most accurate description of RWED I think I've ever heard!
Quote:
Also Mozel tov!
On an unrelated note, I know a guy that insists that the soda-bottle-full-of-gasoline-with-burning-rag-improvised-explosive is actually called a "mazel tov" cocktail. Rednecks!
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Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
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As a fairly new member of Whedonesque, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I found a great many of the responses to the post about OSC to be offensive and in poor taste. I felt embarrassed for all BCs everywhere that such kind comments as were in the Article could be negated by such rude behavior.
Shameful.
"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal
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CK I do agree with CASUAL,MSG and TDBROWN here. I usually stay away from these sort of postings because so many ppl can come away with the wrong opinion of who they think you are. You do seem very hurt by this so I've let down my guard to jot down my opinion and hopefuly help you to feel better.
My wife was mormon for several years ( she isn't now and she wasn't raised mormon) I was raised catholic and I remain catholic though I'm not a church goer. Point is,I don't hate anyone for being who they are or beliving how they want to believe. I may not agree or understand their way but as long as they are not hurting anyone they should go about and live their own life. I do have problems with ppl trying to vomit hate. I try to stay clear but will stand up and fight if need be. Best thing to do is stay away from the haters. Ppl have the freedom to say what they want but I still have the freedom to get up and walk out. The blade swings both ways. Someones opinion can be their own and I respect that unless it involves the abuse of children. That is something that will never be tolorated!!
You are bound to run into folks like this all of your life. Talk to a friend about it ( as you've done here) it helps.
Z
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