River-Sue, Kaylee-Sue, Inara-Sue... A spin-off thread to the Mary-Sue one.
POSTED BY: AgentRouka
UPDATED: Sunday, May 20, 2007 17:00
VIEWED: 8248
PAGE 2 of 3
You know, I never thought about Mal and Zoe (or others) being tortured after the war, but when I think about it, it has been hinted at.
There's the Alliance guy in Bushwhacked who thinks Mal mutilated the survivor from the ship and says "I haven't seen that kind of torture since... well, since the war."
There's also the way Mal knew how to withstand torture during 'War Stories' - to the point that he could help Wash through it. And Zoe knew he could survive and that Niska would draw the torture out as long as he could. I know you could guess some of that or learn it second hand, but still.
*sigh* I'm gonna have to watch the whole series again...
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Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
You know, I never thought about Mal and Zoe (or others) being tortured after the war, but when I think about it, it has been hinted at.
...
*sigh* I'm gonna have to watch the whole series again...
Any excuse is good enough.
Believe it or not, I went right past the big stuff you mentioned which pointed at torture and went for the small. A saying by River I did not understand (the normal explanation did not fit, as why would Mal understand and not Jayne?).
Just think of a conspiracy theory. Any one. You do not have to buy it at all. Then watch the whole series (and the Movie) again to find corroborating evidence.
On stillflying.net (Virtual Firefly. they do scripts for firefly) I have a shedload of topics with varying conspiracy theories in them.
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Ooh ooh! Here's a good one!
Book's secret is...
...
...
...that he's really a COMPANION!!! 
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You're getting the hang of it. (It does fit the data aswell - You just have to look at certain events from a different (soem say forced) perspective)
Apologies to the OP for taking this whole thing off topic.
That is my one true skill. going off on a tangent.
To put this slightyl back on topic, I will say Mal is pretty easy to go "Mal sue" over.
It is easy to take his strengths too far. We ahve to remember his strengths are also his weaknesses.
I would put stubbornness as both is number one strength and his number one weakness.
With Kaylee, both are young, so a certain type of writer (a young female one) could probably put themselves in their places. At times this is obvious, at others not so.
However there will always, always be a degree of interpretation of the characters.
This interpretation can lead to diferent takes on the same character.
As an example if there is a second war, I can see (for example) Kaylee/Jayne/Simon/Zoe going to do their bit more than I can see Mal joining in. (since he is leader of the pack, they won't)
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Whoever prepared the computer doc pages, in the deleted scenes, can't add correctly (Mal's age), but is also a poor speller. Malcolm is spelled "Malcom" in two different places. (teacher always on watch, here)
On page fourteen of the Visual Companion, Joss describes Malcolm as a "kid living on his mother's ranch when he joined up" out of belief alone. Reading this, I've never gotten the image of a grown mature man, with a wife and children, defending their homestead.
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Originally posted by nbz:
That is ok. Only reason I brought it up was because well noone goes down that road.
For a reason... ;) Just kidding!
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I like the road less travelled. (Heard the one where Book is a Companion? It isa pretty disturbing notion, but I like it. Just noone has picked it up for fan fiction. I tried but failed in writing anything.)
The thing about the overly outlandish theories for me is when they contradict established characterisation, or undermine the strength or origin of certain characters traits. There's being adventurous and there's taking away a character I have an emotional attachment to and replacing it with essentially a quite different version for the sake of Sensation!
So.. I like the unusual, too, but only to a certain point.
Mal being 20 years older than presumed, for example, would kill quite a lot of the qualities about him that I like. For example, his very strongly paternal streak and his natural authority would lose quite a bit of their impact if he was at an age where those things are a LOT more expected.
Similarly, if he already had "another life" in his past, it would put into a very different take on the way he values the life he now built for himself, and the way he expresses feelings about the things he is/was attached to and has lost.
It would completely change the character that was built on the nuances we have seen on the show, and that idea sincerely disappoints me because the "new" version is not even remotely as compelling to me.
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Inara the character I would put at mid 30's (you should read my conspiracy on her!), not the same age as morena.
I have her at 27, but that's not too far apart. :) Young enough to have some idealism left, old enough to be wise.
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Nandi as older (not got any conspiracies aboput her). Saffron as younger (or her), but then again he did have issues with Saffron until she drugged him.
One more reason to love Mal. He's almost physically incapable of taking up with someone he doesn't consider his equal. *g*
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We don't actually know what he was like after the valley. Apart from the slight suggestion of permanent incarceration and torture we know nothing.
I would expect what happened later to be a big thing in the shaping of the characters. he would have to learn his humanity again after release. (This is conjecture based on Rivers' words in Safe "they forgot how to be..." combined with "Take me out to the black. Tell them I'm not coming back" and soem place where it mentions they were gonna be tried for war crimes.)
The only issue I take with that is that Mal bought Serenity (and with quite a new rush of optimistic enthusiasm, too) about a year after Serenity Valley. One and a half tops, because he couldn't have built his "reputation" and his crew in less than, say, four years or more. He may not have worked a train before "The Train Job" but he's pretty settled into the interplanetary life of crime.
If incarceration and all the related trauma (Where does it suggest that there was torture after the war, rather than during?) were more influential then the loss of the War itself, then the relearning how to live would have started pretty quickly after release, which kind of takes away from the impact of the trauma.
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After Book, yes we know, but then again that is immediate after effects. What about after Wash? At the end of the BDM he is pretty happy.
By then they were all soldiers. Book was a "civilian" victim taken from Mal when he was just trying to run. Wash's death takes place in the middle of a battle after they all agreed to give "more than before, maybe all." I think that's a big distinction.
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This is why it would have been brilliant if the series had continued for even one episode. I would like to see how the death of Tracey would have hit him and Zoe.
I would suspect a much harder hit on Zoe than on Mal if we take the hints from the episode. Mal le
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Well I am dropping the Mal is almost 50 idea for now. Because of what the visual companion purpotedly says.
Apart from that I would say that it is harder to rebuild up when older.
To me it would be just as impressive.
Overly outlandish theories do not always contradict established characterisation. They will contradict extablished fanfic characterisation, but not canon - If they contradict canon and cannot be explained, I do not buy into them. As an example Rayne.
People can write it, but please have a warning as I will not read it. It has no basis in canon. no scenes can be twisted or forced to fit. There is not even any tension between the characters which can be worked on. he see's her as a liability and is a little scared, but he does not hate her. Otherwise he would not have talked or been friendly to them in "Trash".
Mal does clam up, but with the Tracey issue, Zoe tells Book to back off, and also confronts Jayne in the infirmary with Mal present. Normally Mal confronts jayne. It is almost a set way thing work. Jayne says something. Mal calls him on it. A few eye stares, then Jayne backs down. Not here.
The death bit focussed on Mal because, well, he killed a 'friend'. Zoe shot tracey when her husband was in danger but it was not fatal. Also putting Wash in danger may have changed Zoe's mind. (conjecture obviously)
I love your insight into Zoe though. She is a tough nut to crack and any insight is helpful.
I would also put the purchase of Serenity around 1 and a half years after the war.
I would say they were locked up from a few months to 1 year long. Maybe different amounts of time.
This is where I thought River's words applied. Paraphrasing: "They forgot to be cows. When they saw the sky or smelled the wind or whatever they remembered what they were."
In other words once he hit land, he bottled everything up and started to move on. Was done with the past.
And what torture during the war? they surrendered near the end. For all intents and purposes when they got rounded up, the war was over. Just a few loose ends to tie up for the alliance. Yes, living in Serenity Valley was torture in itself, but to my mind that is not enough.
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I'm not saying the rebuilding aspect would be less impressive. But other aspects of Mal's personality would lose their unique quality that makes them particularly fascinating. To me, anyways.
Rebuilding is impressive at any stage in life, indeed.
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Originally posted by nbz:
Overly outlandish theories do not always contradict established characterisation. They will contradict extablished fanfic characterisation, but not canon -
Well, if Joss suddenly said Mal had sadistic sexual urges (for example) or actually hated strong women, I would very much find that it contradicts canon as we've seen it. It COULD be turned into depth and background and whatever but there's only so much you can stretch before the new piece of information completely turns the character you thought you enjoyed into someone completely else, essentially, a new character.
Because all of their actions would have to be re-evalued in the light of that new piece of information.
From a certain point on, that's not intelligent and twisty writing anymore, it's destroying the emotional attachment of the viewers. So... even canon has only so much range, and it's completely independent from whatever range fannon has.
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Mal does clam up, but with the Tracey issue, Zoe tells Book to back off, and also confronts Jayne in the infirmary with Mal present. Normally Mal confronts jayne. It is almost a set way thing work. Jayne says something. Mal calls him on it. A few eye stares, then Jayne backs down. Not here.
Zoe has reigned in Jayne in other situations, too. "Jayne, you'll scare the women" in Bushwhacked, for example. It's not solely Mal's territory and if Mal has to put down Jayne more often, it's actually because Jayne is more likely to get uppity with Mal than with Zoe.
Besides, these example are still just cases of Zoe doing the "little work" and I think they have more to do with Zoe being the first to say them (as usual) than with Mal "letting her" say them simply because they aren't grand gestures. For all that her refusal to let Book help has symbolic meaning, it's also just a very situational exchange.
She voices no opinion on what they should do with Tracey's corpse, for example. Just follows Mal's cue. If she had more investment than Mal, whether he knew or not, she'd say something.
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The death bit focussed on Mal because, well, he killed a 'friend'. Zoe shot tracey when her husband was in danger but it was not fatal. Also putting Wash in danger may have changed Zoe's mind. (conjecture obviously)
Both, at any point, could have simply told Tracey about the plan. neither did, even though both faced him in critical situations with Wash and Kaylee, so I say they both, in equal amounts, killed a friend and an enemy alike.
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I love your insight into Zoe though. She is a tough nut to crack and any insight is helpful.
Oh, thank you. I'm glad you find it helpful. :)
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This is where I thought River's words applied. Paraphrasing: "They forgot to be cows. When they saw the sky or smelled the wind or whatever they remembered what they were."
In other words once he hit land, he bottled everything up and started to move on. Was done with the past.
I'd say it applies to River just as much, if not more so than Mal. It's one possibility of applying the quote but.. not the only one. :)
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And what torture during the war? they surrendered near the end. For all intents and purposes when they got rounded up, the war was over. Just a few loose ends to tie up for the alliance. Yes, living in Serenity Valley was torture in itself, but to my mind that is not enough.
Well, there is no canon evidence that Mal or Zoe were ever tortured, but there is canon evidence that torture did take place during the war, by the words of the Captain of the "Dortmunder" in Bushwhacked.
So why do you assume they were tortured at all? I'm not saying they were not, but it's not a fact you can base a theo
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Re: torture, I just ran through the various possibilities and think it is the most likely scenario.
This is actually where I defer for Mal and Zoe.
Mal being a 'superior officer' possibly had intel useful in the mop up operation. Zoe would have got off lighter.
With that Safe quote, yes it applies to River. It also applies to the cows. But why does Mal understand it and not Jayne?
The only two possibilities I can think fo that 'fit' are because Mal was a rancher and Jayne wasn't, so Mal knows animals, or that he was tortured during/after the war. It's not canon,. but I see it as a best fit for my understanding. (I do not agree with the 'Jayne is stupid' sentiment.)
Over the Tracey issue we will have to agree to disagree, as to me that is pretty obvious.
Even after he shoots Tracey, he looks down to Zoe to gauge her reaction.
It is Zoe who argues with her husband that he is not diseased while Mal just stands there.
When it comes to the ship, It's Mal's call. It's his ship. Remember that Kaylee is not happy with them even searching his pockets.
In the shooting script on TwizTV (which is NOT canon), they tried to explain before Tracey shot at Wash, but it does not work. He has already panicked.
I am not suggesting any type of physical relationship between the two, or even a chance at one. strictly platonic. In the war scenes she saw him as a kid. he saw her as a hard ass who even the sarge was a little scared of.
Reactions wise, you will notice that in OoG, only Zoe, Mal and Jayne react to the bigger picture. Even Book gets sidetracked when Zoe is taken out.
Also in the BDM, when Book dies, Mal has a few things to reevaluate. running is not working. His new solution is not agreed upon by the cerw until he pulls rank. and offers to shoot them naturally.
When Wash dies, instead of being in shock,Mal looks for the danger and then saves Zoe. (Zoe's shock is understandable.)
Mal's clam ups are more personal emotional reactions, and putting them into words. I think that is what you suggested, but I thought best to clarify it.
PS If Joss did say that ever in a not tongue in cheek manner, we would have to consider it,after he designed the original character. Our semi romanticised versions are what we interpret from what we see and not always accurate.
Ofcourse there would be a few people sharpening their pickaxes if he did say that...
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Re: torture, I just ran through the various possibilities and think it is the most likely scenario.
This is actually where I defer for Mal and Zoe.
Mal being a 'superior officer' possibly had intel useful in the mop up operation. Zoe would have got off lighter.
But Mal was a small seagent, really. What he knew and did, he made up after he got into the Valley, because - as Zoe says in the deleted scene - so many officers died that Mal just sort of ended up commanding 5000 as opposed to 30-something men and women. Not to mention, considering the Independents surrendered and they had negotiations as to the exact nature of the conditions... I don't think they would have needed much extra intel on how to mop things up. That's overplaying Mal's importance in the big picture.
I'm still not saying there may not have been torture, but I don't think it would have been the strategic, systematic, sanctioned kind, but rather done by vengeful individuals and tolerated by the immediate internment facility authorities. Nothing more complex.
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With that Safe quote, yes it applies to River. It also applies to the cows. But why does Mal understand it and not Jayne?
But who says Jayne doesn't understand, intellectually, what she's saying? Maybe he just doesn't care? Mal asks "Is it bad that what she said made perfect sense to me?" which does neither leave Jayne any time to comment, nor does it imply one way or the other whether he understands. He simply doesn't give a reaction.
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Over the Tracey issue we will have to agree to disagree, as to me that is pretty obvious.
Probably the best course of action. :) It's not something that means overtly much to be, either way, but I just don't see Zoe's reaction in as much emphasis as you do. Oh well. :)
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Also in the BDM, when Book dies, Mal has a few things to reevaluate. running is not working. His new solution is not agreed upon by the cerw until he pulls rank. and offers to shoot them naturally.
That's not the agreement I mean. I'm talking about his "I aim to misbehave" speech. That's when each and everyone of them wordlessly and actually agree to his "asking more, maybe all". Before, he's threatening and ordering, just as you say, but not then, and this is why Wash's death hits him differently than Book's.
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When Wash dies, instead of being in shock,Mal looks for the danger and then saves Zoe. (Zoe's shock is understandable.)
Because at that point, Wash has turned into another one of Mal's soldiers, justlike in the war. He's used to commanding men and seeing them die. It's different with friends, but by the time they reach that junction, they've formed a little army of their own.
Plus, Wash quite simply doesn't mean as much to Mal as Book did, on a personal level. He means a lot to Zoe but Mal isn't hit in the same way. He'd have reacted differently if it had been Kaylee or Inara.
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Mal's clam ups are more personal emotional reactions, and putting them into words. I think that is what you suggested, but I thought best to clarify it.
Yes, we can obviously agree on that. :)
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PS If Joss did say that ever in a not tongue in cheek manner, we would have to consider it,after he designed the original character. Our semi romanticised versions are what we interpret from what we see and not always accurate.
I don't think I would have to consider it. Because it would contradict my slowly developed understanding of the character in a way that would render me unable to reconnect and.. I'd probably quite simply abandon the show then, or at least watch it with disappointment.
I hold my tv to a certain standard and I don't subscribe to the "Joss is God" club. If it jerks me around unreasonably, I'll abandon something and perhaps keep my enjoyment confined to the parts of canon that I could still accept.
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