a question about the Tams

POSTED BY: SpacemanSpiff76
UPDATED: Saturday, March 3, 2007 03:57
VIEWED: 8398
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SPACEMANSPIFF76

Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:00 PM

in the episode "serenity", simon bring his crate on board and says he was contacted by some underground people and they freed river. in the movie "serenity", the opening sequence is of simon himself sneaking in and freeing river. whats the story behind the discrepency?

Wash> but thats like science fiction
Zoe> you live on a spaceship, dear

DONCOAT

Friday, January 19, 2007 1:33 AM

It was a continuity problem that Joss introduced reluctantly but deliberately. It was too difficult to write those mysterious underground people into the BDM, and too confusing to people unfamiliar with the series.

But it's easy enough to justify. Simon simply lied to the crew about the level of his own involvement. After all, he'd only known them for a few hours and had already forced a major confrontation with Mal. He only told them as much as he had to.

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I'm pointin' right at it!

TRAVELER

Friday, January 19, 2007 1:44 AM

The confusion lies in the fact that Simon did get help, but was, as DonCoat points out, involved in the rescue.

Traveler

SIGMANUNKI

Friday, January 19, 2007 2:09 AM

But this "resolution" is not accepted by all of us. Some of us (myself included) find it a trite and pathetic (perhaps too strong?) attempt at a work around.

The fact is that Joss had to simplify the story, and this is one of the ways that he did it. Yes, it introduced an inconsistency. But, it was a price he was willing to pay to pack everything into a feature film.

On another note, I'm always confused by people that HAVE TO resolve every inconsistency no matter how small, no matter how large. Why can't it just be one of those, "Oh, I guess this wasn't thought totally through for consistency. Oh well."? Why do people have to be so obsessive?

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"We don't fear the reaper"

REGINAROADIE

Friday, January 19, 2007 3:12 AM

I know exactly what you mean.

I'm a fan, but I've never really gotten into obsessive detail about every minor thing, because if you spend all your time criticizing the window dressing, you miss out on the big picture. So what if in STAR TREK 6 when Valeris shot the pot with the phaser and it disintegrated both the pot and the water and it was supposed to leave the water behind to splash all over. I'm more interested in the political allegories that made it the kick-ass final film in the series. I can give you a few more examples of stuff in sci-fi fantasy that I think are molehills turned into mountains, but don't want to get into it right now.

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"Have you ever fired two guns whilst jumping through the air?"
"No."
"Have you ever fired ONE gun whilst jumping through the air?"

SPACEMANSPIFF76

Friday, January 19, 2007 6:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
(cut by SS76)

But it's easy enough to justify. Simon simply lied to the crew about the level of his own involvement. After all, he'd only known them for a few hours and had already forced a major confrontation with Mal. He only told them as much as he had to.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

that went though my head too. i was just wondering what the story was and what you gus thought about it. answered my question, thanks.

Wash> but thats like science fiction
Zoe> you live on a spaceship, dear

BAGHEERA

Monday, February 26, 2007 4:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:

But it's easy enough to justify. Simon simply lied to the crew about the level of his own involvement. After all, he'd only known them for a few hours and had already forced a major confrontation with Mal. He only told them as much as he had to.

While I understand how this explanation 'technically works', and kinda use it to justify to myself why the BDM shows what it does... it just doesnt ring true on several levels.

First, the explanation of the escape isnt the only lie he told the crew, he also routinely lied about River's psychic abilities. Before the BDM, Simon was merely downplaying River's intuitive abilities, and didnt appear to really suspect psychic reading himself. But after the BDM, we are shown that not only did he KNOW, but that he routinely lied and denied to the crew and captain, even after he had long reached the point where he "trusted" them at the end of the season.

Sure, we can assume that Simon would lie, cheat, steal, murder, and move the stars and moons to rescue and protect River... which brings me to the second issue.

Simon is a !@#$ing lousy liar.

He may be able to downplay his suspicions to others, but if he truly believed what he was saying was false, he'd clam up and choke like he did on mudder central.

which brings me to the only obvious explanation.
River doesn't exist, and Simon is completely !@#$ing crazy, hallucinatory, a reader, as well as a writer, and projects his hallucinations on anyone or anything around him.

but all in all, i just gotta take it with a lump of salt that it was typical Hollywood License to change whatever they felt in order to squeeze the necessary backstory into as short a time period without creating more confusion then it cured.

THEONETRUEBIX

Monday, February 26, 2007 5:41 AM

The difference, when it comes to Simon's poor lying in Canton, was that the situation didn't involve River's safety. Simon consistently showed his ability to be calmer, cooler, and tougher when it came to his sister's safety.

http://www.riverismadeofchocolate.com/spoilers/2005/Jul/21/no_contradi
ctions

And while not everyone HAS to accept the "Simon lied to the crew" explanation, it nonetheless is the one eventually pronounced publicly by Joss, and so "Simon lied" is official canon.

http://www.serenitymovie.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=766

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SUPERFLUOUS

Monday, February 26, 2007 7:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
But it's easy enough to justify. Simon simply lied to the crew about the level of his own involvement.

I agree. To my reckoning, Simon lied to the crew originally: to perhaps deviate from the crimes he may have done rescuing River (he may be wanted for more things, besides River (e.g. the criminal world, etc). The possibilities are endless.
I don’t see it as a cheap, leap of faith for viewers. I see it as a chance to get to know Simon on a much deeper level.

And it kinda reminds me of ‘The Lord of The Rings’ and ‘The Hobbit’. The ‘Lord of the Rings’ book’s (not the movie), are based upon a chapter in ‘The Hobbit’.
In ‘The Hobbit’, Bilbo tricks Golem into giving him the ring. But in the sequel ‘Lord of the Ring’s’ book (specifically ‘Fellowship of the Rings’), Gandaf explains that when Bilbo really stole the ring (as mentioned in the sequel), he decided to erase the parts of the book that made him look bad. Because Bilbo (supposing) wrote the book, he made changes to that part, thus making him seem more the victor. Tolken, didn’t just re-write the original book to explain the discrepancy. He made it a strong plot device for his new books which added another dimension to them. Like they say: History is written by the victors.
If that made any sense, please let me know… but nonetheless, it’s all in the way you look at it.

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BAGHEERA

Monday, February 26, 2007 7:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by theonetruebix:
Simon consistently showed his ability to be calmer, cooler, and tougher when it came to his sister's safety.

actually, he consistently showed the exact opposite, that although he was able to bend his morality when it came to protecting his sister, he only did so with discomfort, and WOULD endanger himself and his sister if the alternative was crossing his morals.

Quote:
it nonetheless is the one eventually pronounced publicly by Joss, and so "Simon lied" is official canon.

blahblahblah... what do you expect him to say "Yeah, I had to sell out the integrity of the storyline and !@#$ over the fans so that the people that have never heard of Firefly would be able to enjoy the movie a little more."

personally, i find the "Joss lied" explanation a lot more viable then the "Simon lied" excuse.

and there's a big difference between a minor bending of the truth or white lie... such as Simon's "turn this ship around or kaylee will die" which he was inwardly sweating bullets that they'd call his bluff and the supposed "he knew River was a danger to himself and the crew, but said !@#$ you Mal, she's my sister, she can do whatever she !@#$ well pleases, and you don't deserve my trust and honesty."

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