Real World Event Discussions

Evolutionary Debate

POSTED BY: AnthonyT
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 16:16
VIEWED: 20170
PAGE 15 of 20

ANTIMASON

Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:03 AM

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Originally posted by SevenPercent:

Really curious what someone like Antimason has to say about it...

well thanks.. i guess? i suppose its because i tend to take the extreme position on these issues: well my honost opinion about "evolution Sunday" is that these people can believe what they want, they have thee right, and they may be right.. but the bible doesnt say man descended from a lower primate; and theres not a whole lot of ways you can spin the billion year concept, and still interpret the scriptures with any amount of consistency. outside of that it contradicts Jesus' message, which is that we are only in a temporary material('fallen')state, that is inferior to our original design(if you will); in this case the opposite of the concept of a 'progressive evolution'- until the 'messiah' or God reveals himself to mankind, and redeems us. i realize that its an incredible claim.. but thats the beleif, the concept. if they dont want to believe what the bible says, what makes them christian(by definition)? there are a lot of gods that people could pray to that might better suit their idea of an ideal 'god'.. but it doesnt make it the christian God yhwy

CITIZEN

Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:06 AM

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Originally posted by Antimason:
but how do you know it cant be? no offense, but that sounds more like your own personal opinion then an empirical truth. if God does exist, then its possible we might have evidence of this within DNA itself(if its true that you cant backward devolve a sequence of DNA beyond a certain point, then that would constitute evidence that DNA itself coudlnt evolve, but possibly had an intelligent driver behind it)

I'm am going to repeat myself one last time, because if you still don't get it nothing short of a hammer is going to be sufficient to beat this inordinately simply premise into your skull. It is NOT my opinion, Science deals with the physical world, and only the physical world, God is not part of the physical world, God is metaphysical by very definition. If God wasn't metaphysical God wouldn't be God. Therefore God can not be a part of science. If you require me to repeat myself again just read this paragraph over and over until you get it or you have an embolism. Whichever happens first, thanks.

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what are we holding science back from, really? it hasnt stopped academia in the slightest from perpetuating their scientific discoveries.

You don't seriously want the list do you?

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if we ARE any kind of obstacle, its because a lot of people in the field make these bold claims to have disproven the existence of God..

No it's because Religion is used to telling people what to think about everything, and now that has changed and religion and many religious folk, yourself included it would seem, want that hegemony back.

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and yet youll say yourself that science doesnt have an opinion either way.. so how is that?

I can't answer the question because it's based from a false assumption. I asked you to back up your claim that science has ever made any claims on the existence or non-existence of God, and instead of backing up your claims you repeat them. Either back them up or stop talking shit.

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isnt that an encroachment on religion?

No, since it's not happening.

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you can say what you want, but i have no dispute with science itself, my problem is with evolutionary theory being touted as 100% unquestionably proven, and is then used to illegitimize religion.

So you have no problem with science, as long as it doesn't contradict the bible. Gotch ya, very magnanimous of you, thanks.

Also where has Evolution been used to 'illegitimize' religion? Oh that's right, it doesn't mirror the Bibles literal interpretation of creation, ergo it must be attacking religion.

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there are a lot of peices of evolutionary theory, especially in reference to immeasurable periods of time, that cannot be proven... so whether these current theories are right or wrong, they are only 'beliefs' until they can be substantiated

A belief can not be proven or disproven, a theory can. Evolution isn't a belief system, never has been never will be no matter how often you repeat yourself in order to silence non-religious voices. You continue to repeat yourself on points that have been refuted already hoping that no one will notice, but we have noticed.

Declaring Evolution a belief system because it doesn't support your belief system makes you out to be foolish, nothing more.

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ID is just an alternative position to take.. one that doesnt include life arising on its own.

Repeating myself again because that's all you've done, again. ID is not Science.

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no one here has witnessed abiogenesis, and the alleged evolution from proteins to fully functional beings..

No one's seen an intelligent being designing human beings in a workshop either. But there is evidence of proteins and other basis of life being created naturally in environments similar to primeval Earth. So already there's more evidence for abiogenesis than there is for ID. Your inability or unwillingness to accept that data is your problem, not Sciences.

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if science is what is seen and re

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ANTIMASON

Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:21 AM

frankly, im tired of butting heads with you- i get your point, just fine, thank you- i always have

i know God is metaphysical, but he designed us for the physical. i believe God created us, and that the evidence is within the DNA itself; call me an ignorant religious zealot and fool and all you need, but i disagree with you that man evolved from apes.

maybe we can have a civil discussion around here once in awhile, without religion becoming the evil bad guy

ANTIMASON

Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:46 AM

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Originally posted by citizen:

What I think is that you don't like masons, you don't like science, and as a schizotypal conspiracy theorist that means they both must be intimately connected and somehow responsible for anything that goes wrong in your life.

youre entitled to your opinion, although you dont know me personally. all i ever asked was for people to look into secret societies like the masons, since its typically not even mentioned... once you do, you cant deny the 'conspiracies', its all well documented. that doesnt make me schizophrenic. despite what you say i dont hate science, i hate unproven science sold as fact

FREDGIBLET

Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:23 AM

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Originally posted by antimason:
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Originally posted by citizen:
What I think is that you don't like masons, you don't like science, and as a schizotypal conspiracy theorist that means they both must be intimately connected and somehow responsible for anything that goes wrong in your life.

youre entitled to your opinion, although you dont know me personally. all i ever asked was for people to look into secret societies like the masons, since its typically not even mentioned... once you do, you cant deny the 'conspiracies', its all well documented. that doesnt make me schizophrenic. despite what you say i dont hate science, i hate unproven science sold as fact

First off, just like to say that I agree with cit in the last few posts (I was out car shopping so I couldn't add my opinion).

Second, Mason...I'm trying (and failing) to think of a delicate way to put this but when you constantly bring up secret societies in posts that have nothing to do with them it just makes you sound batshit crazy, so just as a little advice I think people will take you more seriously the less you sound like PirateNews. I hope that wasn't too offensive.

FREDGIBLET

Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:35 AM

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Originally posted by antimason:
despite what you say i dont hate science, i hate unproven science sold as fact

Just noticed this part.

So you don't like evolution, which has mountains of studies and over a century of attempts to disprove it, yet you like ID which has neither? The groups that advocate ID do no original research and contribute nothing to the repositories of human knowledge, yet you prefer it over evolution which is integral to our understanding of the world of biology and crucial to the understanding of countless genentic diseases? Just wondering.

ANTIMASON

Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:21 AM

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Fredgiblet-
So you don't like evolution, which has mountains of studies and over a century of attempts to disprove it, yet you like ID which has neither?

i believe species evolve, but i am skeptical of carbon dating techiniques, geological dating methods, and abiogenesis.. so im not willing to make the leap that human beings over millions of years evolved from apes, which arose from Millers primordial soup. whether you deem me an idiot or not(noting the condescension), this is my opinion

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The groups that advocate ID do no original research and contribute nothing to the repositories of human knowledge,

spoken like a true omniscient being

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yet you prefer it over evolution which is integral to our understanding of the world of biology and crucial to the understanding of countless genentic diseases? Just wondering.

yep. i dont dispute what is observable and verifiable... but people pretend like they watched man evolve personally over millions of years, and there is simply not enough evidence to make that statement conclusively

ANTIMASON

Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:45 AM

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Originally posted by fredgiblet:

Second, Mason...I'm trying (and failing) to think of a delicate way to put this but when you constantly bring up secret societies in posts that have nothing to do with them it just makes you sound batshit crazy,

first off, what would you know about secret societies? youve probably never even looked into the area- but coming from the perspective of a Creationist, the fact that it was secret societies that originated the concept of evolution prior to Darwin is significant( especially when it shares Luciferian/Kabbalistic/gnostic archetypes). if God does exist, then all of this is related. besides, in this whole thread i barely even mentioned the subject(secret societies), i just offered an opinion that none of you would likely ever hear, consider, or tolerate otherwise

secondly, Citizen made a point of calling me a schitzo, and extending the tirade about how im just a blind fundementalist freak conspiracy theorist; because i mentioned the religious philosophy behind evolution(and its similarities to the occult golem concept). im honostly a little baffled that people are so hostile towards these ideas though.. is this the wrong forum to contribute to?

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so just as a little advice I think people will take you more seriously the less you sound like PirateNews. I hope that wasn't too offensive.

yah.. your a will(woe)fully ignorant, physchotic bible thumper.. 'no offense'. it gets tiring being the evolutionist whipping post.. i think from now on, instead of offering a different opinion, or another angle that no one else will study into.. ill be another lockstep evolutionist and agree with everything you all say- thatll make for an intersting contribution

FREDGIBLET

Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:26 AM

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Originally posted by antimason:
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Fredgiblet-
So you don't like evolution, which has mountains of studies and over a century of attempts to disprove it, yet you like ID which has neither?

i believe species evolve, but i am skeptical of carbon dating techiniques, geological dating methods,

Carbon dating is one of many dating techniques that are used, and all of the dating methods are calibrated against know entities and against each other. There is a margin of error but it is far from enough to disprove evolution.

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and abiogenesis..

Not relevant to evolution.

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so im not willing to make the leap that human beings over millions of years evolved from apes

Just checking, it's OK for other species to have evolved, just not humans. Is that what you are saying here?

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which arose from Millers primordial soup.

Once again, not relevant to evolution.

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whether you deem me an idiot or not(noting the condescension), this is my opinion

I don't think you are an idiot, I just think that you are emotionally invested in incorrect ideas. It happens to everyone.

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The groups that advocate ID do no original research and contribute nothing to the repositories of human knowledge,

spoken like a true omniscient being

The groups that advocate ID do only that, they spend no time or money on researching ID but instead spend all their time reiterating refuted complaints about evolution (which works because most people don't hear the rebuttals), loudly proclaiming how they have been persecuted (because scientists mostly ignore them since they are based in religion and not science), and figuring out ways to get ID into schools. There is a whole section on http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html dedicated to ID, which you might want to check out (section CI down near the bottom).

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yet you prefer it over evolution which is integral to our understanding of the world of biology and crucial to the understanding of countless genentic diseases? Just wondering.

yep. i dont dispute what is observable and verifiable... but people pretend like they watched man evolve personally over millions of years, and there is simply not enough evidence to make that statement conclusively

ID is neither observable nor verifiable and no one has seen an Intelligent Designer at work, yet you are seeming to state conclusively that ID is fact?

FREDGIBLET

Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:49 AM

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Originally posted by antimason:
Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:

Second, Mason...I'm trying (and failing) to think of a delicate way to put this but when you constantly bring up secret societies in posts that have nothing to do with them it just makes you sound batshit crazy,

first off, what would you know about secret societies?

Very little. What I know is that there is a good chance that there is one or more groups of people with the power to influence events on a global scale. But since these groups (if they exist) don't do recruiting drives and don't advertise their presence there is nothing I can do about them, no way I can make myself one of them and thus no reason to search for their existence and loudly trumpet any evidence I find to other people. At best I will be wrong and there are no such groups, at worst I will gain the attention of the groups and be disposed of.

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youve probably never even looked into the area-

Answered above.

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but coming from the perspective of a Creationist, the fact that it was secret societies that originated the concept of evolution prior to Darwin is significant( especially when it shares Luciferian/Kabbalistic/gnostic archetypes).

So someone else thought of it first...and? I don't think that there is much of a chance that even a globally significant group could plant enough evidence and influence enough experiments to have had a major impact on evolutionary theory without seriously risking exposing themselves.

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besides in this whole thread i barely even mentioned the subject(secret societies), i just offered an opinion that none of you would likely ever hear, consider, or tolerate otherwise

But you did mention it, the vast majority of people are going to look at any mention of secret conpiracies as you being batshit crazy like I said. It goes back to the comments about Dawkins earlier, whether he believes that atheism is THE WAY or not he shouldn't be loudly trumpeting it because all it does is piss of the people that he is trying to convince of evolution.

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im honostly a little baffled that people are so hostile towards these ideas though.. is this the wrong forum to contribute to?

Unfortunetly yes, even here in RWED the climate is not favorable towards global conspiracy theorists (look at the resonses that PirateNews gets). I can't say for sure but I think that most people kind of agree with the opinion that I put forth in my first response here. Also, conspiracy theories float around constantly but rarely is there significant evidence that is obvious enough to get the attention of the layperson (Scientology is one of the few that managed to grab the spotlight for a while).

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so just as a little advice I think people will take you more seriously the less you sound like PirateNews. I hope that wasn't too offensive.

yah.. your a will(woe)fully ignorant, physchotic bible thumper.. 'no offense'.

I never said you were woefully ignorant or psychotic or a bible thumper. But if you want my honest opinon? I think that you are largely misinformed about evolution (though you know a fair bit more than the average person that is TRUE about evolution), and that you are emotionally invested in ID because it supports your religious beliefs. As for the conspiracy theories?...well I don't believe that the extent to which some people follow them is healthy, but I admit that there is a fair chance that some of them are true.