There's a Hole in the World
POSTED BY: Steve580
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 9, 2004 11:48
VIEWED: 18024
PAGE 4 of 6
Wow - this is my favorite theory ever! Whether or not it turns out, it would add wonderful weight to al lot of Fred's statements about not being the damsel in distress, etc.
I also wonder if Fred was the first to fall out of the new W&H crew because she was the one most easily capable of doing good with her new situation. My fiance and I were having a discussion about the fact that science is so much harder to corrupt than law, for example. You can lie about the results, you can suppress it, you can ignore parts of it, but the doing of science is relatively straightforward. You don't get into the morality of it until science is applied to the real world.
Whereas law is all sticky implications, shades of grey and teeny-tiny ethical questions at every step. Therefore, even if you intend to do good with law, you can inadvertently get corrupted a lot quicker than you realize. Thus Fred has been the most useful, most balanced of the team this year. And Gunn is ethically the most shady.
As my fiance said: "Fred's building laser guns and handing them to other people. Gunn's pulling the trigger every time he takes any sort of action."
I don't know if that makes any sense at all...
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I agree with you about the scene in the lobby. And when she woke up and said "all my boys". Fred is the only one that ever seemed to touch all of the people around her. Cordy was never able to connect with all of those around her. She was too self-involved. The Fang Gang need Fred more than they ever needed anyone else, even Buffy.
You're gonna come with us...
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And I know I'll get jumped on for this, but oh. i'm so surprised. a good guy got turned into something evil. how original. joss has never done that before.
I've been thinking about this a lot, because on the surface it bothered me a little bit two. But I've come to the conclusion that this is something quite different from past episodes.
Consider this: In Buffy Willow chose to become evil. She was the person doing the evil, of her own free will (and no, I don't subscribe to the belief that 'the magic made her do it', you always have a choice). Fred is dead. She has nothing to do with that demon other then the shell of her body that has been utterly hollowed out. She isn't making any of the choices, because she is no longer even there.
Then you have Cordy in last Season. In this case you have someone being possesed by something evil. Once again, different. Cordy wasn't dead. Fred is. In a way its the same, as Fred's corpse is being possesed, but her personality is gone--Cordy's never was completely.
The final instance of a character turning evil is obviously Angel himself. But here his evil is about control of impulse being taken away. What happens to you when you have no concience? That is Angelus at the core--he's Angel's darkest elements taking over.
My point with all this is that each of these instances are fundamentaly different. They all look at a different aspect of drama and character. Each tested both the audience and the characters in different ways--and I think you shouldn't count it out.
As a completely side note to those of you hatching up schemes for keeping Fred alive. I'm with you in not completely wanting Fred to be dead, but I think the episode looses all its weight if she turns out to come back in some way. Her character has completed its arc in many ways. But even more there are very strong hints that Fred is dead, including various statements throughout the episode--the most damning of which implies that she no longer has any organs, and is essintally a hollow shell. Does that mean there is no way for her to come back? No, this is a Joss Whedon show. Anything could happen. But at the very least if Fred comes back her body is gone--so it would have to be in the form of a ghost/robot/I have no clue. Seems most likely though, that she will stay dead.
"A moment contains so many fragile things. Its a wonder we are able to keep any of them alive later."
-Jonathan Carroll, White Apples-
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Originally posted by 11thHour:
Steve580:
Seems as though a UK fan read the first post on this thread and then discovered, too late, the Angel MAJOR spoilers.
Perhaps you should edit your first post to insert a spoiler warning and 'safety area' for folks who haven't seen the ep, and want to be surprised. That way they can make an exit unscathed...
I know I would have hated to know ahead of time what happened on this Angel installment!
Agh! Sorry...
See, I contemplated a spoiler box; but I figured people who hadn't yet seen the ep would avoid clicking on a thread sharing its title. It (stupidly) never occured to me that someone might not know what the show was called yet...
It's spoiler-proofed now though...heh, heh...sorry.
-Steve
*edit* - It's spoiler proof now
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Perhaps the series finale will end with floating and glowing fiqures of Fred and Cordy come to say goodbye...
" Not this girl, Not this day ! "
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As for Fred being PERMANENTLY dead....I really hope not! I know it it would be very much like Joss to kill one of the major characters off, but I really don't think he'll do it this time. They'll find a way to rid her body of Illyria, and get Fred back.
During Buffy's final season, I recall the contract troubles ME had getting the actress who played Tara, whose character died near the end of season six, back to reprise her role.
Ultimately, they could not reach an agreement and she did not appear.
As Joss apparently planned it, the First would appear in Tara's form, with the predictably emotional reaction from Willow and the rest of the Scoobies.
But there was more; it was evidently Joss' plan to bring Tara back to life somehow in the final episode, which would've been...amazing.
Am I the only one who gets sad seeing her again in Once More, With Feeling?
Is it possible Joss is thinking of using that idea--take Fred away, seemingly irrevocably, then return her in the final episode?
Talk amongst yourselves.
Nick Tesla
Tesla-PC/NYC
http://tesla-pc.com
Computing that makes sense.
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Originally posted by Kurukami:
Despite not wanting to see it, my money's on Fred being gone for good. Throughout the course of Angel, Wesley's been the one that the worst stuff happens to.
Oh yeah... poor Wes. He has had a lot of bad luck and misery over the years. Me thinks Joss gets evil pleasure out of punishing our proper young Brit.
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Always, Wes is being dragged more and more towards becoming a dark, tormented soul. My guess is that Fred won't be coming back even though the actress may remain, and that Wes will continue his descent into cynicism and despair. The weird thing is that it's almost the opposite of the journey that Angel and Spike are trying to make...
Interesting point. Gee... Lord help everyone if Wesley ever gets 'vamped'! I think he could end up being worse than Angel or Spike ever were. He's been holding back his whole life, plus he's got the magic thing goin' on... whoa, scary.
Anyway... Fred's death could either mean that it's going to keep being 'business as usual' as far as Wesley's luck goes (Fred's dead, deal with it). Or... something really, really wonderful will happen and she will be restored. Finally something for him to balance out all the crap.
Time will tell...
11thHour
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"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds
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Originally posted by Steve580:
Agh! Sorry...
See, I contemplated a spoiler box; but I figured people who hadn't yet seen the ep would avoid clicking on a thread sharing its title. It (stupidly) never occured to me that someone might not know what the show was called yet...
It's spoiler-proofed now though...heh, heh...sorry.
-Steve
*edit* - It's spoiler proof now
Very impressive spoiler proofing job!
If anyone ignores all those warnings and lead-ins, then they get what's comin' to 'em!
11thHour
__________________________________________________________
"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds
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Very impressive spoiler proofing job!
Thanks, thanks...
Was Tara really supposed to come back? Seriously? Aw man. That's so cool! So Joss really does care about his charactors! He death is always the one that troubled me the most.
-Steve
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Originally posted by Steve580:Was Tara really supposed to come back? Seriously? Aw man. That's so cool! So Joss really does care about his charactors! He death is always the one that troubled me the most.
-Steve
Yes. Joss stated specifically in an interview that he had intended to bring Tara back. He had even planned out how it would happen, and that it would be very powerful. But Amber Benson was adamant about not reprising the Tara role. So... Tara stayed dead.
I'm thinkin' that maybe the unrealized plan to bring back Tara might find its expression with Fred. As much as it is possible that we'll just have to deal with a beloved character dying, and staying dead... there's still hope. I think there is a far more interesting and deep opportunity for storytelling by finding a way to restore Fred, and how that would affect all the other characters, i.e. "her guys".
Joss is, after all, a born storyteller...
11thHour
__________________________________________________________
"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds
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