There's a Hole in the World
POSTED BY: Steve580
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 9, 2004 11:48
VIEWED: 18024
PAGE 3 of 6
More possible spoilers, read at your own risk!
I got the very distinct feeling that Wolfram and Hart is getting the better of Angel Inc. and what I mean is that it is gradually turning them evil. Gunn is pretty self explanitory, but when I saw him hit Knox the second time it reminded me of the scene in "Serenity" when Dobbs, after knocking the Shepard out, then hit him again. And then with Wesley, yes I understand that he wants everyone working on Fred's case, but isn't shooting the guy a bit counter productive and in fact very much a thing Lindsey or Lila did to associates in an earlier season. I think these might play a role in future episodes.
Back to Fred. Didn't Angel say that the doctors told him that her organs were "heating up" and that they would liquify in 24 hours? As much as anything is possible in the Whedonverse, I think that Fred as we knew her is dead.
"Whoa, good Bible."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Great acting in this episode.
I've kinda been waiting for Knox to turn out evil for a while, but wasn't entirely sure. I thought he was going to turn out to be working with Lindsey, though.
Unfortunately, this episode had a definite end-of-sweeps gut-wrencher-to-get-ratings feel to it for me.
And I know I'll get jumped on for this, but oh. i'm so surprised. a good guy got turned into something evil. how original. joss has never done that before.
I think I know why the WB canned it. They read the ending of this episode.
I'll still be watching to see Spike, but there's really nothing left to talk about with this series. Same old, same old. See ya.
--Kala
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The best part of the episode was Lorne dealing with Eve. I've never seen Lorne in that light before and honey, he rocks.
As for Gunn hitting the creep several times with the blunt object - Don't blame him a bit.
Spike going off in the tunnel was a fabu moment. Who is the goaltender for Manchester United? They were my favorite team when I was stationed in England. (yes, my husband calls me a 'goon' because of that).
"Just keep walkin, preacher man."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
the spike/angel hand-holding-orc-clothes lining thing was awesome...
kinda hard to believe nither of them had been on planes before.. but i guess it's cause of the necro-glass thing..
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
11thHour wrote:
I'd also hate to see Fred 'gone gone'. I avoid spoilers at all costs and don't want to know what the plans are for Fred by season's end. I would like to see her brought back somehow, and in the Whedonverse, anything is possible. Wesley deserves the love for whom he has waited so long... and Fred doesn't want to leave yet...
Despite not wanting to see it, my money's on Fred being gone for good. Throughout the course of Angel, Wesley's been the one that the worst stuff happens to.
Getting fired by Angel.
Getting shot in the stomach.
Being forced to choose between Angel and the child.
Getting his throat cut.
Having to chop the recently deceased Lilah's head off.
Symbolically shooting his "father" after that individual threatened Fred.
And now, after his long-suffering wish to start a relationship with Fred, having it shattered after a brief moment of happiness.
Always, Wes is being dragged more and more towards becoming a dark, tormented soul. My guess is that Fred won't be coming back even though the actress may remain, and that Wes will continue his descent into cynicism and despair. The weird thing is that it's almost the opposite of the journey that Angel and Spike are trying to make...
History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Cavemen! that's the real answer to it all.
I loved it. Joss is awesome. & Nox (aka tracey) screwed up again. When you can't walk ya crawl & when ya cant do that anymore you invite some ancient demon goddess to take over the body of the coworker who doesn't love you.
I'll be sad to see this all end. Spike was awesome. & Yes the baddies were very LOTR, and that's ok by me.
lotsa good lines & great subplots. Joss Rocks!!!
Networks suck!
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hard transistion after the muppet episode, but good none-the-less.
Is it bad of me to think that new demon-Fred looks way hot?
Anyone notice it was Paul Atretis from the Sci-Fi channel's Dune mini-series that played the keeper of the "Hole"?
-The SpAz
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
So this is what I'm thinking, now that I've recovered a few pieces of the heart that Joss ripped out of me last night (and all my speculation is just that--I've seen nothing indicating how or even if Fred comes back).
I know that Angel talked about liquified organs and all that, but both my brother and I felt that Fred's story, as opposed to Illyria's, is not done. We just didn't get that same sense of closure we've felt after other deaths on both Buffyverse shows: Tara felt finished, Jenny felt finished, Lilah felt finished, Cordy felt finished. But somehow, Fred doesn't.
I was also thinking about how determined Fred was to keep fighting, how insistent she was that she wasn't going to leave. And then it occurred to me: what if she's doing what we've seen her do so many times in the past--using misdirection. When handed a crossbow in Caritas, she pretended she might shoot Angel only to turn the weapon on one of their attackers. When Wesley stalked her under Billy's influence, she led him into a situation where he believed he'd won only to discover she'd laid a trap. Ditto with Jasmine. Throughout her tenure on this show, Fred has always been very good at taking advantage of being underestimated by others.
So what if Fred created a mental version of her Pylean cave for herself, deep in her mind, and only made Illyria believe she'd given up the ghost? (don't ask me how--I haven't quite worked all that out) And now she's just waiting for Illyria to give her an opening to take her body back? Not only would it reflect her own past behavior, but it ties in to the book Wes read her, as "The Little Princess" is (as I understand it) about a girl who retreats into her imagination and looks to her own inner strength to survive a terrible turn of events. Such an ending would also be the one way Joss et al haven't used to resolve one of these "bad guy taking over one of the heroes" situations: having the person save themself.
Yes, I'm sure all this is wishful thinking. But I'm absolutely with those wanting to see Fred come back. Losing her on top of all the other losses the Fang Gang has suffered, particularly when it comes to Wes and Angel, would almost make the show too dark to bear.
Life sucks enough, Joss. Give us a little light here to hold on to, will ya? Please?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Maybe it was just me, but I saw a lot of Firefly in this episode. Sometimes, it felt almost as if parts of scripts had been borrowed. Made me think of Kaylee in the hospital bed (Mal, too, for that matter). Also, they had some camera work that reminded me of FF. And of course there was the whole Knox turning out to be a jerk thing. No surprise to me, just an observation.
"You didn't have to wound that man."
"Yeah, I know. It was just funny."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
I know that Angel talked about liquified organs and all that, but both my brother and I felt that Fred's story, as opposed to Illyria's, is not done. We just didn't get that same sense of closure we've felt after other deaths on both Buffyverse shows: Tara felt finished, Jenny felt finished, Lilah felt finished, Cordy felt finished. But somehow, Fred doesn't.
Exactly what I was thinking. This is the main reason why I belive that Joss still has something in store for bringing Fred back.
Quote:
So what if Fred created a mental version of her Pylean cave for herself, deep in her mind, and only made Illyria believe she'd given up the ghost?
Very intrestign way to explain things. I never would have thought of it myself, but I like it. And it definitely fits Fred's character as you've said. Hopefully Joss is thinking the saw way as you
Quote:
I got the very distinct feeling that Wolfram and Hart is getting the better of Angel Inc. and what I mean is that it is gradually turning them evil.
This is defnitely how things are looking right now. And honestly, if this really does end up being the shows last season, I can see why Joss would do it this way. Wolfram & Hart can seemingly get the better of the group by turning them all against each other, but in the end, everyone will realize what's going on, and turn on Wolfram $ Hart. What better way to end the series than by having the gang destroy the one thing that they've been trying to stop since season 1?
And also, one more thing I forgot to mention in my earler post was the scene with everyone togehter in the lobby after they left Fred's room. I absolutely loved that scene. It was amazing to see just how much togetherness Fred has instilled in the group. It was enough to even make Spike and Angel work toegher without complaining! Now that takes a special kind of woman! lol
"How drunk was I last night?"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME