Everybody passes the buck
POSTED BY: Malbadinlatin
UPDATED: Thursday, February 8, 2007 13:48
VIEWED: 6534
PAGE 5 of 6
Loads of interesting reading in here today. What a great debate. I only wish I didn't work (hah) nights because I'd like to be a bigger part of this discussion while it happened. I know because of this, I'm going to forget a lot of the replies I had in my head while I was reading the posts. So sorry if I left anything or anyone out ahead of time.
Firstly Frem.... thanks for the wonderful history lessons, and information that you're not very likely to get on CNN or FOX. Although I knew a moderate amount of information about McCarthy before I think Chrisisall said it best when he said "...I'll bet they don't teach ANYTHING about McCarthy-ism in school...I know that's not where I learned about it." I know I sure didn't even hear about the man at all in school, though I vaguley remember hearing about "McCarthyism" here and there growing up. Most likely from my grandparents.
It's possible that he WAS in the Social Studies books, but seeing as how that book was by 3 times the largest book we had in school every year I went and I went to public school, we usually only skimmed over the material and probably only really read about a 10th of it at most. I know I HATED history lessons when I was a kid. It was far and away my least favorite subject. I suspect this was due to music I listened to and cartoons that I watched when I was a kid. Not to mention all the crap you get from all of the other kids already when you're the first one done with all your work and you get the best grades in class.
I recommend you give some of these cartoons a look on Cartoon Network and Saturday morning cartoons and see just how adult a lot of the ideas are hidden under the cute childlike graphics, and some of the ideas I think the kids just soak up like a sponge. I don't think I need to mention the subversive lyrics in music (that I'm just as guilty of listening to now as I was then). Things really haven't changed much in those regards except now they swear a lot more and that just acts as another buffer to shield the actual contents of the music from parents who refuse to listen to the actual lyrics their kids are eating up.
Anyhow...... It's sad that we don't learn about anything important in school, unless you think it's important to teach kids to color within the lines, always carry your ID card on you under any circumstances, speak with 6" voices, and not to speak until you raise your hand and are called on.
Several points that I remember that I wanted to speak on, in no real particular order. I'm sure there are more, but I can't recall exactly and we'll just try to keep this post under the length of a Steven King novel.
Quote:
Frem: "There's still time, but we have a madman at the throttle."
Unfortunately, I don't believe this would be any different had we had any other Repuglican or a Demoncrat in office. I don't believe that they are anything more than a front for the machine that works behind them no matter which side of the coin we're throwing the tomatos at.... I suspect that you don't either.
Quote:
Frem's posted article: "If you are going to be patriotic, have a little sense in the doing. You know most of those flags you folks are waving? Well, turn em over - what do they say ? MADE IN CHINA....oh, that's realllll patriotic, ain't it now. "
Now THAT is just BEAUTIFUL! I couldn't help but smile and think of how stupid humans are in general when reading that.
Quote:
Frem's posted article: "Please remember that the flag is based on something. It is based on a set of beliefs laid down in our Constitution and it's Bill of Rights. However - when you wave that flag over an act against those beliefs, you spit on all it stands for, and damned if I will accept that laying down."
I just posted on the thread started by Khyron about this yesterday. I still haven't read that thread since our last post Khyron, I will soon though if you read this before I post there. I'm very interested in hearing your reply from what we were discussing yesterday.
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Quote:Not quite right. There was one member of the House who voted against the war, but 23 Senators. Quite a few- not surpisingly all Democrats plus one Idependent-- voted against. These are the people who had vision:
Republicans blame Democrats, and vis versa for the war in Iraq. When congress voted to award President Bush the right to wage war AS HE SAW FIT, they all (except 1)
Akaka (D-HI) Bingaman (D-NM) Boxer (D-CA) Byrd (D-WV) Chafee (R-RI) Conrad (D-ND) Corzine (D-NJ)
Dayton (D-MN) Durbin (D-IL) Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (D-FL) Inouye (D-HI) Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA) Leahy (D-VT) Levin (D-MI) Mikulski (D-MD) Murray (D-WA) Reed (D-RI) Sarbanes (D-MD)Stabenow (D-MI) Wellstone (D-MN) Wyden (D-OR)
Quote:Again, not quite right. Even at the height of the furor, about 15% of the population could see where this was going and opposed it. That include me. I'd been expecting an attack for about 5 years. I was just glad it wasn't any worse.
became responsible for every American sacrificed in this tragic war. We the people are just as much to blame. After 911 everybody wanted to kill the terrorists.
Quote:There is a third option, and that is to partition Iraq- at least in terms of internal security- and to find regional garantors of each partition.
Now everyone blames somebody else for the catastrof#!k we find ourselves in. Let's face it, in order to keep factions from fighting each other in Iraq, you have to rule like Saddam did, anything short has been tried, and historically hasn't worked. We don't want to rule like Saddam, it's not our thing. So there are 2 choices, brutalize the people of Iraq, or get out and leave them the hell alone. We are all responsible for this, unless you are one of the very few that were not seduced by the dark side after 911.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Uh huh, tapes of a Right handed, ring-wearing, pug nosed "Osama" with a much darker complexion.
I remember them and their translations being rather thoroughly debunked, too.
Please Note: I am neither agreeing with him, nor vouching for his honesty because I do not trust his words any more than those of our so-called leaders, but after pretty blantantly fake tapes appeared - whether propaganda for Al-Qeada to cover up the fact that OBL has likely expired from kidney failure, or propaganda from US sources, any contention over OBL "claiming to have done it" is a flat lie.
In response to 9-11 what OBL *SAID* was this.
"USAMA BIN LADEN: In the name of Allah (God), the most beneficent, the most merciful. Praise be to Allah, Who is the creator of the whole universe and Who made the Earth as an abode for peace, for the whole humankind. Allah is the Sustainer, who sent Prophet Muhammad (saw) for our guidance. I am thankful to The Ummat Group of Publications, which gave me the opportunity to convey my viewpoint to the people, particularly the valiant and momin (true Muslim) people of Pakistan who refused to believe the lies of the demon (Pakistani military dictator General Pervez Musharraf).
I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam. All that is going on in Palestine for the last 11 months is sufficient to call the wrath of God upon the United States and Israel. There is also a warning for those Muslim countries, which witnessed all these as a silent spectator. What had earlier been done to the innocent people of Iraq, Chechnya and Bosnia? Only one conclusion could be derived from the indifference of the United States and the West to these acts of terror and the patronage of the tyrants by these powers that America is an anti Islamic power and it is patronizing the anti-Islamic forces. Its friendship with the Muslim countries is just a show, rather deceit. By enticing or intimidating these countries, the United States is forcing them to play a role of its choice. Put a glance all around and you will see that the slaves of the United States are either rulers or enemies of Muslims.
The U.S. has no friends, nor does it want to keep any because the prerequisite of friendship is to come to the level of the friend or consider him at par with you. America does not want to see anyone equal to it. It expects slavery from others. Therefore, other countries are either its slaves or subordinates. However, our case is different. We have pledged slavery to God Almighty alone and after this pledge there is no possibility to become the slave of someone else. If we do that it will be disregardful to both our Sustainer and his fellow beings. Most of the world nations upholding their freedom are the religious ones, which are the enemies of the United States, or the U.S. itself considers them as its enemies.
The countries which do not agree to become the U.S. slaves are China, Iran, Libya, Cuba, Syria [Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iraq, Sudan, Indonesia, Malaysia] and Russia. Whoever committed the act of 11 September are not the friends of the American people. I have already said that we are against the American system, not against its people, whereas in these attacks, the common American people have been killed. According to my information, the death toll is much higher than what the U.S. Government has stated. But the Bush Administration does not want the panic to spread. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the
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Quote:
I recommend you give some of these cartoons a look on Cartoon Network and Saturday morning cartoons and see just how adult a lot of the ideas are hidden under the cute childlike graphics, and some of the ideas I think the kids just soak up like a sponge.
Funny thing about that, Jack...
I learned a damned lot of classical music appreciation and history from Bugs Bunny - that system can be worked for good or ill, I think.
C'mon, ya gotta admit that Bug ROCKED THE HOUSE when he did his own take on The Barber of Seville... and wasn't half bad at Wagner either.
Quote:
I have never read this before. I have no clue what the source is or what the penname is, but I happen to be a fan of that particular style of writing and I have my suspicions. If it was who I think it was though I don't think you'd be wanting to keep it a secret, so they're probably a big fan like I am. Great article whoever it was though.
Oops, guess I wasn't clear on that one.
I wrote it, and several more - but not as yer good buddy "Frem".
And I'd take it as a kindness if we keep that little bit between us all browncoats here, ok ?
It's unlikely anyone would make the connection, but it would be a little awkward, I think.
Quote:
Bottom line, I don't care what happens there if we left. It's not my responsibility and it's not my business. They're fighting about things I don't care about in the least.
Bing.Bang.Boom.
Again, Amen and Hail to the Church of Mind Yer Own Business.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:This is nothing new. Propeganda has been spread in children entertainment for centuries, most nursury rhymes have a hidden message. I remember watching the Raccoons as a kid, there's no hiding the message behind that.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I recommend you give some of these cartoons a look on Cartoon Network and Saturday morning cartoons and see just how adult a lot of the ideas are hidden under the cute childlike graphics, and some of the ideas I think the kids just soak up like a sponge.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Thanks for the clarification. It's nice to hear from some of the few who were not sucked in by the 911 Anger/Fear-mongers.
As for partitioning Iraq...it didn't work in Vietnam so much, but you're right, maybe the notion that neither sunni nor shiite holding sway over the other could get them to stop killing each other. And the Turks...they will have a royal s#!t if we give the Kurds autonomy. To the Turks, the Kurds ARE terrorists.
But ya know what...when did everyone fall in love with the Iraqi people? I dont think we should accept responsibility for a struggle that's gone on since forever. We didn't at all mind embargo-ing them for years on end. Who among us can deny atrocities committed while we supported Saddam against Iran. If our only reason for staying is because we think we're now responsible for thier behavior...that's a massivly messed up co-dependant relationship in the making.
But, I say again...thanks for the clarification on those politicians. Maybe we should select one of them to run for President...if that would only be possible...
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Quote:The main problems of Iraq started after the First World War with the fall of the Ottoman empire. The region was carved up by the Western powers with little regard for long preserved tribal boundaries.
Originally posted by Malbadinlatin:
As for partitioning Iraq...it didn't work in Vietnam so much, but you're right, maybe the notion that neither sunni nor shiite holding sway over the other could get them to stop killing each other. And the Turks...they will have a royal s#!t if we give the Kurds autonomy. To the Turks, the Kurds ARE terrorists.
But ya know what...when did everyone fall in love with the Iraqi people? I dont think we should accept responsibility for a struggle that's gone on since forever. We didn't at all mind embargo-ing them for years on end. Who among us can deny atrocities committed while we supported Saddam against Iran. If our only reason for staying is because we think we're now responsible for thier behavior...that's a massivly messed up co-dependant relationship in the making.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:Yep.
Originally posted by citizen:
The main problems of Iraq started after the First World War with the fall of the Ottoman empire. The region was carved up by the Western powers with little regard for long preserved tribal boundaries.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
In response to 9-11 what OBL *SAID* was this.
Okay. So the three other videos of Bin Laden taking responsibility for 9-11 isn't really him. I think you're right. Upon closer observation, it looks like Elvis. And I think I saw Hitler, JFK and Jimmy Hoffa standing behind him.
I should know better than attempting to post references in here coming from someone's own mouth about what they, themselves, did. Silly me.
Thanks for the wake up call. I'm admittedly slow on some things, but I should've realized sooner that the posters in here already have all the answers about everything.
I need to stick to forums with posters who aren't wearing tinfoil hats.
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Uh-huh.
Hold a picture of OBL up next to that guy and try telling me that's him.
Also, the translation source isn't exactly reliable either, as MEMRI has a well proven history or mistranslating stuff politically.
What we've got here is one guy (OBL) who I consider a liar and manipulator, saying he didn't do it, and one guy (Bush) who I consider a liar and manipulator, who says he did do it - that he-said-she-said shit might be good enough for a jerry springer episode, but it's a damned pisspoor pretext to go to war on.
And then you got a couple tapes of some guy who looks utterly nothing like OBL, who's darker and right handed, claiming to be OBL, and claiming that he (OBL) DID do it.
Besides which, most bombings you got groups comin outta the wordwork claiming credit for it besides, most of whom are fulla shit.
In light of these facts, and that none of the testimony is at all credible, all that I want is some hard evidence - which I do not think is too much to ask in the situation.
You can dodge the question all you want, imma keep asking it till I get an answer.
Show me one whit of hard evidence that OBL was involved with 9-11.
And while yer at it, how bout showin me one whit of hard evidence that Saddam had a functioning WMD program and actual WMD warheads with functional delivery systems capable of hitting strike targets.
Till you can do that, imma call bullshit on it, cause that's what it is.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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