Everybody passes the buck

POSTED BY: Malbadinlatin
UPDATED: Thursday, February 8, 2007 13:48
VIEWED: 6534
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ANTIMASON

Friday, February 2, 2007 2:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Well,

I'm not one of those who 'knew it all' beforehand. I didn't watch Bush's posturing and speechifying and realize instantly that we were headed this way.

neither was i.. but when i realized that the government 'knew it all' beforehand, i changed my worldview. believe it or not a lot of people predicted the 9/11 hijackings and ME immobilization in advance, but the mainstream media kept a lid on it for the most part. Alex Jones has his predictions on video in his july of '01 sydicated broadcast- you can watch it on google/youtube

SIRI

Friday, February 2, 2007 3:32 AM

Good point - the hot potatoe thing seems also to be an appropriate analogy.

As for me, horrified as I was the morning of September 11 - I was hoping for a calm and considered response. I wasn't sure about Afghanistan but at least there we seemed to be relying upon Afghanis (albeit the local warlords) to do the job. I have to use the word horrified a second time when the talk shifted to attacking Iraq. While I admit I had no idea if there were or were not WMD's or an Osama Bin Ladin connection anymore than others - perhaps the congress did believe the prez. Still, a pre-emptive attack felt wrong then and the results certainly don't seem to be helpful.

My problem now is that I have no idea the best course to take. Much greater minds that mine have ruminated the situation. So many are making predictions as to what will happen to that poor country and their people if we leave. Will they be even worse off than before? Do we have an obligation to try to help clean up the mess? How do we do that without further contributing to the chaos and destruction? Who can know for sure? Certainly not me and it seems not our president either.

And what will be the ultimate result? How many years will go by and what ripples will result before we know the outcome and repercusions of the stone cast in that pond?

Do we all have a responsibility? Probably so but certainly some more than others. Do we have a responsibility to speak up and attempt to help solve the problem? Up until recently those who spoke against the president were labeled traitors and terrorist sympathizers - perhaps even risking the dreaded terrorist surveilance squad - maybe not. I'm not big into conspiracy theories but I didn't like the way things were headed. Do we give up liberties to be safe? How far do we go down that slope when we become more like those we fear?

Hey, I'm glad for the discussion - as long as we're talking and thinking we've got a chance to come up with solutions. Maybe even some good ones.

As an aside, the night before 911 I was listening to a radio program and the topic was American Hedgemony and the effects in the world.

Siri

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, February 2, 2007 10:31 AM

Quote:
We are all responsible for this, unless you are one of the very few that were not seduced by the dark side after 911.

That'd be me.
*raises hand*

Several days after the fact I wrote a set of six blistering editorials related to the subject, at least one of which was published under a penname.
(If there's interest, I'll repost it here)

I was immediately suspicious of the so-called Patriot Act being brought out so quickly it HAD to have been written in advance, and voted on by reps who didn't even read it at a time of high emotions.

I demanded to see one whit of proof that
A - OBL had anything to do with it, when he himself passionately denied so.
B - OBL was actually in afghanistan and/or being abetted in any way by the Taliban.

And you can imagine how my hell I raised about us first obviously harrassing and provoking Iraq, then abusing UN inspection teams as a military intelligence sweep to make sure they were virtually defenseless before we invaded em.

Having already known prior to events about PNAC, "Clean Break" and the desire for a "Modern Day Pearl Harbor" as an excuse to execute it, some percentage of us tried like hell to point out this would happen if folks didn't stop and get a hold of themselves, and mostly got insulted and ignored.

Well, "I told you so" ain't no damn comfort when 3000 of our own troops have been wasted on this insanity - perhaps folks could start by listening to the people they've been dismissing out of hand for so long.

Last word - Anyone with a real good grasp of history KNOWS what a bad idea it is to sidestep the checks and balances and hand too much power to someone even with the best of intentions, but the cabal in power played on the emotions of the people with blatant propaganda to keep emotions high and prevent folks from thinking it over, which some folk also saw and tried to decry.

You wanna copy of the editorial posted, just say so.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, February 2, 2007 11:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
....I think we owe it to them to try our best to fix the mess in Iraq.

And by "fix", I'm assuming you mean installing a puppet Democracy. They can be a deputy US state like Puerto Rico. Maybe they'll even get an American Area Code too.

Then we can tax the hell out of them and force their women, against their religion and way of life, not only go to school, but to work too. Then their kids can grow up watching Iraqi rap stars on MTV while both parents are at work and learn to hate their parents. Oh, and they'll need a whole lot of booze, because that's a "safe" drug, unlike marajuana which they can grow themselves untaxed and has never killed anybody.

Then when the kids grow up all messed up they can watch movies like Hostil like that 44 year old guy in Fort Worth Texas that kidnapped his ex-girlfriend and tortured her with a blowtorch..... etc, etc, etc.....

I'm not saying it's any better there now, but.....

Trust me pal. They don't need any of our favors. Let them sort it out. Ain't our business.....

Frem - I'd be interested in giving your documentation a read. I'm constantly labeled a conspiracy theorist and have taken great pleasure in knowing that I'm right when other people couldn't see and being able to tell them "I told you so". It's just too bad that I'm being effected by it too or it would be REALLY funny.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, February 2, 2007 1:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
And by "fix", I'm assuming you mean installing a puppet Democracy. They can be a deputy US state like Puerto Rico. Maybe they'll even get an American Area Code too.

No. But that would be a hell of lot better for the Iraqi people then re-installing a Hussein 2.0, or leaving them to various militias and death squads.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 2, 2007 2:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

*raises hand*

*raises hand too*

Two things I didn't see though: I didn't think Saddam would be that easy (Yeah, easy...

) to catch, and I didn't expect Afghanistan was going to be as successful as it was. The mess in Iraq and the Patriot Act were givens. I had predicted Iraq was going to be a five year party with a ten year hangover (hairs of the dog, as it were).

And I'd be interested in those editorials too, Frem.

PS, although I'm not actually predicting it, a small nuke going off at our lovely new permanent base in Iraq just before Bush goes out of office wouldn't surprise me. That would really screw us: that way Bush could suspend the transfer of leadership under the new "Nuc-u-ler Terror Executive Extension" clause in the Patriot Act (Not yet made public for security reasons), and become President for life.
How's that for a scary scenario?

Quaking in his boots Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 2, 2007 2:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
that would be a hell of lot better for the Iraqi people then re-installing a Hussein 2.0, or leaving them to various militias and death squads.

Forced to agree with ya there, Finn.

Chrisisall

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, February 2, 2007 2:31 PM

Quote:
No. But that would be a hell of lot better for the Iraqi people then re-installing a Hussein 2.0, or leaving them to various militias and death squads.

I want you to go take as good a look as possible at Fallujah, what's left of it, and then a good look at the photos of casualties, theirs, ours and civvies, and I want you to answer me this.

"How is this better than Saddam Hussien" ?

Can you HONESTLY answer that one in the affirmative ? is it even possible ?
*shaking head*

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 2, 2007 2:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

"How is this better than Saddam Hussien" ?

He'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Finn means from this point foward it would be better.

But I agree with what you're saying Frem. However there are some that say all that death is worth it to end Saddam's torture squads and such...
my math don't have it like that, but hey, I'm not good at math anyway...

1+1-1=Chrisisall

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, February 2, 2007 2:50 PM

Editorial's coming up next, I gotta bust it back from HTML formatting, gimme a min.

Chris, my primary concern at this time, tactically is the potential losses facing our naval forces if we start something with Iran.

The Excocet missle is no joke, kids..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_(FFG-31)

and they've got a right shitload of the damn things, more than enough to close off the strait and trap our forces in there while they pound the hell out of our ships with SSN22 Sunburns, which the PHALANX system is useless against, and they've got quite enough to saturate the SEARAM units even if they do work as well as advertised...
Which, given the usual quality control of US Defense Contractors, is a toss up anyway.

On top of that they actually have effective aircraft and anti-aircraft which combined with suppression of our carriers would deny us air superiority, something the US is so effective at that we've taken it for granted.

Frankly, our tactical position sucks, especially against a nation that's been actively planning it's defense against us for 20+ years, with a military that is not overextended and demoralized.

If Bush and Ahmadinejad wanna talk smack to each other, let em fekkin do it on Oprah, and not with the lives of our naval personnel hanging in the balance.

Oh, and Jack ?

Not glass, trinitite.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/trinitite.html

Mike R makes a damned good comment on the whole issue of THAT deterrent, raising some interesting points.

-Frem
(Editorial bit coming up next)

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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