"The Static Drinking Game" - or - "Why Should I Support the Military?"
POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Friday, March 19, 2004 20:30
VIEWED: 24289
PAGE 8 of 11
Quote:Hey, I never called anybody a "murderer." I do know marketing, and I smelled the stinky propaganda that took America to Iraq. Americans were sold a war, rather badly I might add, but somehow the cheerleading society jumped on board.
Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
To all else (Succotash...), you don't have the foggiest what you're talking about... You don't understand notion that I can simultaneously kill and not be a murderer... You don't understand these things because you don't have first hand experience with the military."
Bush sold the war with every means he had. He tried to link Saddam to Bin Laden, he sold a Good vs. Evil battle, then used "FREEDOM", crying, "Their lives suck, let's free them!" and let's not forget about the imaginary weapons of mass destruction.
I don't trust the system, and your sense of duty isn't really impressing me.
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You ought to respect the military because people who wear the uniform guarantee the freedom of the rest of the country.
I do respect the military. But I certainly don't cry and jump for joy when I see a soldier. I feel bad for what a soldier goes through.
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The people who have died in the uniform bought that freedom with thier life.
I'm glad I live free. I owe extreme gratitude to the Founding Fathers and retired and dead soldiers, I know we need a military, and I think it's currently being misused.
I would never spit on a person.
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I agree with 'Tash on only two points. First, Static sure does mention the military a lot. I don't get it, being that this is a Firefly board, but hey, he's got freedom to brag just like 'Tash has freedom to complain.
Second, not everyone who wears the uniform is a hero. The hero is the Sergeant who ran through a hail of Iraqi bullets to a Bradley, drove that Bradley into a hole in the perimeter caused by a massive explosion and through which Iraqis were pouring into the camp, then cleared, loaded and manned a .50 caliber machine gun, killing the Iraqis who were killing his comrades. The particular Sergeant was killed still firing the machine gun, and has been put in for a Medal of Honor. Not for randomly killing "innocent" Iraqis, but for giving his life in defense of his buddies. That's a hero.
Yeah, that's some serious shit. Soldiers should only be put in those situations when it's REALLY, REALLY important.
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Once again, maniac has stumbled blindly and loudly into a corner, thrashing about for all to witness, wrestling himself into a knot. While this is sometimes hilarious, it . . . well, it's hilarious all the time, actually.
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Originally posted by Drakon:
... I won't force my beliefs, even my morality on you, as long as you reciprocate in an identical manner.
And you know what? I think I am right. Now that may be narrow minded, or "big" (?). Tough. That is the way it is.
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Maniac responded:
Don't you see that you've overlooked the fact that you are expecting everyone to adhere to your morality?
You say, "as long as you reciprocate in an identical manner." By believing that, you are apparently unwittingly, forcing your beliefs on people whether they want them or not. I really think you need to take a closer look at this issue.
Anybody else notice that Maniac completely ignored the meaning of clear english words? That somehow 'you don't bother me, I won't bother you' became 'forcing your beliefs'?
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Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
To all else (Succatash, and his ilk), you don't have the foggiest what you're talking about. You don't understand the concept of duty to one's country. You don't understand the concept of sacrifice for something greater than self. You don't understand notion that I can simultaneously kill and not be a murderer. You don't understand these things because you don't have first hand experience with the military.
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Maniac responded:
You are mistaken. Duty to one's country does not only come in one form, nor does understanding sacrifice or things greater than oneself. Understanding of many things can and does come through many ways other than first-hand knowledge, but unfortunately most soldier-types tend to need that kind of visceral reinforcement. Please try not to tell me and others what we can and can't know, or why we can or can't know it.
Did Maniac just go crazy and fall down? Nobody said there was one form of duty or sacrifice, or did I miss that?. NOTHING is mastered without 'first-hand' experience, right? I know I don't want a medical student cutting on me. And 'visceral reinforcement'; that's a technical psychology term meaning 'too stupid to learn'?
There are high horses a-plenty out there; Maniac's just happens to be a rocking horse.
Maniac said:
I guess I don't know anything and my opinion about important things like sacrifice and morality and honor isn't valid because I haven't been to war. Sorry for making you all endure my lesser thoughts. I will just let all of you warriors decide what's right and wrong.
Finally, he gets it! The warriors ALWAYS decide what's right and wrong . . . the only question is are YOU a warrior, or do you have a good warrior to represent you?
Sorry you're having trouble keeping pace with all these concepts, Maniac, but just remember the old saying; if you can't walk, then you crawl, and if you can't do that . . . well, you know the rest.
Take my love
Take my land
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Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
You don't know me or anything about me. Let me tell you that my father was in the army, my brother in-law is currently high in the armed forces (no-where of anyone's business) and my brother is a doctor in the AF, who was recently in Turkey and Afghanistan. So, when you think you are talking to someone who doesn't know anything and you start shooting your mouth off, let me say, think twice. You're not gonna cow me with your pathetic attempt to undermine my ability to give input on a topic.
fine, so you have a innumerable better perspective than other folks who sit on the sidewalk cafe, a slightly more than those who read and study about it. I am not saying that your experience is not valuable to you and not saying it's not a valid one. However, it is still incomparable.
I would also point out that as valuable as the experience is having relations in the armed forces - and again, I am not saying your insights are not valid or not valuable - it would be a fallacy to commit it as first hand experience. After all, having a father and a uncle who are lawyers would certainly give one keen insight into the profession, however until one passes their own bar exams, said person should not be confered any legal responsibilities as a practicing attorney.
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Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
For you to say that your experience of something is more valid or should I say BETTER than someone else's because you've been in war is sad and wrong. Especially since you have no idea what experiences other people have been through. Believe it or not, even though war sucks ass, it isn't the worst thing in the world. Do you happen to know everyone? NO. So, quit making these statements saying that your experiences are the be-all-end-all.
I don't know everyone and I don't claim to know them. I just know what everyone's nominal experience is as I have listed the few that everyone must experience and struggle against in real life, as do soldiers, farmers, physicians, librarians, policemens, factory workers, and burger flippers. I know that everyone experience what they call struggles thru life, that everyone all experience hardship as they see it. I am asking you to take a different perspective from your own and see that other people define hardship different from you. That soldiers use those same words that you do, but they use it to mean different things. I have provided a small illustration regarding a rape victims's perception on some very simple words that we use everyday in very casual manners - and those same words have very different and powerful emotions and meaning for other people with other experiences.
At no time, did I state that any one's experience is more valid or superior. It might be that it's is your attempt to rank people's experience to different levels. While I merely wish to point to the differences. A soldiers experience is not be-all-end-all, and I have no doubt that there are others who have truly comparable experience that might enable them to relate to them in a more approximate way. But I do point out again that a soldier is no different than anyone else, they are regular people when they are not send off to some foreign land. Again I repeat, that they go thru the same struggle that everyone else do. We have soldiers from every walk of life with the very same wishes and dreams, same labor and toil, the very same hopes and If you care to list the greater or fewer number of comparable experiences that you have, please do.
I feel that we are also in danger of another logical fallacy that I must enumerate every case and everyone's experience in order to discuss this matter. It should be sufficient to state a general case, offer a valid example, shows that it extrapolates, and come to an understanding that it should applied to most general cases. There will always be corner cases in the real world that must be dealt with on their own. But in most instances, again I must insist, that a soldie
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I also want to reinforce the fact that, when it comes down to the brass tacks. Soldiers as workers get paid diddly for the same kind of crap ( I would say and believe it's more crap ) and don't get paid nearly as well as firemen or policemen (examples of other professions whose workers put their lives in imminent danger). In fact, most soldiers earn below poverty level wages and live in the crapiest part of town around the bases.
In fact, lots of soldiers and their families have to get foodstamps just to survive everyday lives.
That's just not right at all.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
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Originally posted by Drakon:
... I won't force my beliefs, even my morality on you, as long as you reciprocate in an identical manner.
And you know what? I think I am right. Now that may be narrow minded, or "big" (?). Tough. That is the way it is.
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Maniac responded:
Don't you see that you've overlooked the fact that you are expecting everyone to adhere to your morality?
You say, "as long as you reciprocate in an identical manner." By believing that, you are apparently unwittingly, forcing your beliefs on people whether they want them or not. I really think you need to take a closer look at this issue.
wulfhawk wrote:
"Anybody else notice that Maniac completely ignored the meaning of clear english words? That somehow 'you don't bother me, I won't bother you' became 'forcing your beliefs'?"
Ok, I like your style. I'm a technical writer though, so I KNOW you're full of shit. Did you notice that I didn't ignore the meaning of anything, Dumbshit? He said, "as long as you reciprocate in an identical manner." That isn't the same as "you don't bother me, I won't bother you", it's much, much, much closer to a forcing of beliefs. Think about that for at least 10 seconds before you start typing in your drunken stupor, alright?
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Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
To all else (Succatash, and his ilk), you don't have the foggiest what you're talking about. You don't understand the concept of duty to one's country. You don't understand the concept of sacrifice for something greater than self. You don't understand notion that I can simultaneously kill and not be a murderer. You don't understand these things because you don't have first hand experience with the military.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maniac responded:
You are mistaken. Duty to one's country does not only come in one form, nor does understanding sacrifice or things greater than oneself. Understanding of many things can and does come through many ways other than first-hand knowledge, but unfortunately most soldier-types tend to need that kind of visceral reinforcement. Please try not to tell me and others what we can and can't know, or why we can or can't know it.
wulfhawk wrote:
"Did Maniac just go crazy and fall down? Nobody said there was one form of duty or sacrifice, or did I miss that?. NOTHING is mastered without 'first-hand' experience, right? "
The only way you'd know someone on the ground is by looking over next to yourself. That is where you are wrong again. Mastery is gained through many ways. How many little kids do you think actually purposely touched the stove that their mother's told them not to?
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Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
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As always, the sweet reason of Maniac shines through to light our way.
If by 'technical writer' you mean you write those nice explanations that nobody but you or a crew of phone support geeks can figure out...well, that kinda explains itself, don't it?
If by 'full of shit' you mean you'd like to force your belief on me that I'm wrong and not allowed an opinion and that you are the final end-all, be-all of wisdom...well, that's pretty self explanatory, too.
If by 'dumbshit' you mean I'm not gonna let you spew quasi-english about things you shouldn't without calling you on it...well, that does too, I reckon.
"... I won't force my beliefs, even my morality on you, as long as you reciprocate in an identical manner."
This post says "...I won't force my beliefs...", and Maniac responds " you are apparently unwittingly, forcing your beliefs"
I think this explains itself, also...no, wait, Maniac didn't get it, right?
While I always appreciate the high level of education, intelligence and class brought to a post by Maniac (e.g. "Think about that for at least 10 seconds before you start typing in your drunken stupor, alright?"), I think my job here is done.
Almost. Since we're making it personal...
Maniac, you are a lying, cheating scum, almost completely without honor. That's not much of a cut-down to you, but I'm sure the other folks understand. I hope you don't travel out of state much, because in other states they scrape up piles like you with a shovel and deposit them back into the field.
Take my love
Take my land
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Quote:
You're all getting into pretty iffy territory now. Defining "evildoers" and going so far as to take "moral" action against them. Whew!
I know you might be thinking, "we're only talking about when a guy has a gun pulled out, and for whatever reason you've decided he's gonna kill you, it's fine to kill him first." Of course. That's self defense. But that's not what I'm talking about here.
You said "...it's a good, moral thing to kill evildoers..." That's a blanket statement. I would say you're right in some cases, but I can think of instances where you're wrong.
For someone to think that way, first off they would have to decide that their version of "right and wrong" are the only correct one. That's real big of 'em. And really narrow-minded.
But what about the people that everybody thinks is incredibly evil? Like serial rapists, for instance. Or the Washington area snipers. Even though they aren't going to ever hurt you, or anybody you know, wouldn't it still be a good idea to kill them? The way I see it, if you deserve death twice over, you ought to be killed. It's like in the Toby Keith song, "Beer for my horses."
Lyrics: http://www.anysonglyrics.com/lyrics/t/tobykeith/beerformyhorses.htm
Of course, killing isn't something you should do lightly, but there are a lot of people who deserve to be executed.
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Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
Almost. Since we're making it personal...
Can we take it back AWAY from being personal? There's no need for the kind of hostility being thrown about here. There's just folks having differences of opinion/experience/etc. Some might change their opinions, some might not. No need for name callin' and the like - by anyone.
Now, with that statement, I'm probably going to receive a bit of flaming my own self, but it needed to be said.
~A~
...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.
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Sure thing, Astriana...just wanted to demonstrate that a fella didn't have to resort to grade school cursing to make a point.
You shouldn't worry about flames...none could reach the rising star of your human spirit.
Take my love
Take my land
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Quote:Wow.
Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
Maniac, you are a lying, cheating scum, almost completely without honor. That's not much of a cut-down to you, but I'm sure the other folks understand. I hope you don't travel out of state much, because in other states they scrape up piles like you with a shovel and deposit them back into the field.
You know, I've been trying to learn something on this thread. But this is terrible. You are lashing out like an angry child. Where's the honor in that?
Wulfhawk, your behavior undermines anything you have to say about the definition of honor. Kind of ironic, don't you think?
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