"The Static Drinking Game" - or - "Why Should I Support the Military?"
POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Friday, March 19, 2004 20:30
VIEWED: 24289
PAGE 7 of 11
Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:Quote:
Originally posted by LtNOWIS:
Am I the only one who thinks it's a good, moral thing to kill evildoers, even if they're not attacking you personally?
Nope not alone one bit. I will go further, (proving how much a lower life than you I am) and say you don't wait till he pulls the trigger or hits you first. If you are sure that he is going to hit you, kill him first, before he kills you.
If "and only if" you are sure...
You're all getting into pretty iffy territory now. Defining "evildoers" and going so far as to take "moral" action against them. Whew!
I know you might be thinking, "we're only talking about when a guy has a gun pulled out, and for whatever reason you've decided he's gonna kill you, it's fine to kill him first." Of course. That's self defense. But that's not what I'm talking about here.
You said "...it's a good, moral thing to kill evildoers..." That's a blanket statement. I would say you're right in some cases, but I can think of instances where you're wrong.
For someone to think that way, first off they would have to decide that their version of "right and wrong" are the only correct one. That's real big of 'em. And really narrow-minded.
If everyone thought that way, then, of course, everyone would just be a bystander waiting to be labeled an "evildoer" by someone else and eventually hit first or shot first.
Sad but true. But which is more preferable to you. Being alive and wrong, or being dead? That is the choice you got. You do get into the problem in that the more 'certain' you are about something, the more risk you are assuming. And in such situations like this, if you are wrong about the guy being harmless, or take too long to figure it out, achieve a greater degree of certainty, you're dead.
Smoking guns only smoke after they've been fired. At that point you can be pretty certain of what they are trying to do. But you can also be dead, and that just is not good.
Now, here is how I see things morally. No force, no fraud, don't harm folks and try not to scare the horses. As long as you don't make your problems mine, I ain't got no problem with you.
I also look at it from a position of reciprocity. I won't kill you, as long as you don't try to kill me. I won't steal from you, as long as you don't try to steal from me. I won't force my beliefs, even my morality on you, as long as you reciprocate in an identical manner.
And you know what? I think I am right. Now that may be narrow minded, or "big" (?). Tough. That is the way it is.
"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
... I won't force my beliefs, even my morality on you, as long as you reciprocate in an identical manner.
And you know what? I think I am right. Now that may be narrow minded, or "big" (?). Tough. That is the way it is.
Don't you see that you've overlooked the fact that you are expecting everyone to adhere to your morality?
You say, "as long as you reciprocate in an identical manner." By believing that, you are apparently unwittingly, forcing your beliefs on people whether they want them or not. I really think you need to take a closer look at this issue.
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I, too, serve PROUDLY in our country's military. I am an intelligence analyst with the U.S. Navy SEALs. I spent time in Afghanistan (Kandahar Airport, right after we captured the place), and Iraq (made it all the way to Baghdad with the 1st Marine Division). I say this by way of proving that I know whereof I speak.
To the folks in here expressing support for me and mine in the armed forces, my sincerest thanks. Don't much care if you think the war is just or not, so long as you don't spit on me. Happened to my Uncle after Vietnam.
To all else (Succotash, and his ilk), you don't have the foggiest what you're talking about. You don't understand the concept of duty to one's country. You don't understand the concept of sacrifice for something greater than self. You don't understand notion that I can simultaneously kill and not be a murderer. You don't understand these things because you don't have first hand experience with the military. The military is necessary? Yes. The military is evil? No.
That said, I will put my life on the line (and I have twice now) to guarantee that you can continue to believe and think what you want. I will brave bullets and blood and bombs to insure that everyone in this here country of ours never has to face those things. You ought to respect the military because people who wear the uniform guarantee the freedom of the rest of the country. The people who have died in the uniform bought that freedom with thier life.
I agree with 'Tash on only two points. First, Static sure does mention the military a lot. I don't get it, being that this is a Firefly board, but hey, he's got freedom to brag just like 'Tash has freedom to complain.
Second, not everyone who wears the uniform is a hero. The hero is the Sergeant who ran through a hail of Iraqi bullets to a Bradley, drove that Bradley into a hole in the perimeter caused by a massive explosion and through which Iraqis were pouring into the camp, then cleared, loaded and manned a .50 caliber machine gun, killing the Iraqis who were killing his comrades. The particular Sergeant was killed still firing the machine gun, and has been put in for a Medal of Honor. Not for randomly killing "innocent" Iraqis, but for giving his life in defense of his buddies. That's a hero.
_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.
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Quote:
Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
To all else (Succatash, and his ilk), you don't have the foggiest what you're talking about. You don't understand the concept of duty to one's country. You don't understand the concept of sacrifice for something greater than self. You don't understand notion that I can simultaneously kill and not be a murderer. You don't understand these things because you don't have first hand experience with the military.
You are mistaken. Duty to one's country does not only come in one form, nor does understanding sacrifice or things greater than oneself. Understanding of many things can and does come through many ways other than first-hand knowledge, but unfortunately most soldier-types tend to need that kind of visceral reinforcement. Please try not to tell me and others what we can and can't know, or why we can or can't know it.
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Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
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hehe... that's b/c those soldier types are the tools that the talking and thinking types (in absolutely no way am I saying soldier types don't think) use when the talking and thinking stop working and there are a bunch of bastards from hell charging up the hill with knifes and bombs. That's when you either pick up a rifle and defend your ideas or just sit back and enjoy that viceral experience that others are affording you.
No one can tell you what to think, say, or experience (well, at least at the philosophical level and within the confines of certain states in the US anyways). But when it comes down to getting your butt nailed to the wall by people who wants you and your ideas destroyed, or making them pay for thinking about killing you. I would just assumed that we can all pick up a rifle and help out. B/C at the end of the day, unless if someone is out there willing to defend all of that talking and thinking, it will all just get boiled to a nice postscript in history that absolutely no one will give a hoot about.
BTW, sacrificing the Grande-no-foam-soy-latte every other morning is not really a comparison. There is absolutely no comparison to getting your ass shot at with fighting the morning traffic or debating whether the sky is blue.
If one has a fine example of a comparable experience to sacrificing than to having your dearly beloved chopped down in combat, let those families who are burying them purple hearts know and see if they agree with you.
Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:Quote:
Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
To all else (Succatash, and his ilk), you don't have the foggiest what you're talking about. You don't understand the concept of duty to one's country. You don't understand the concept of sacrifice for something greater than self. You don't understand notion that I can simultaneously kill and not be a murderer. You don't understand these things because you don't have first hand experience with the military.
You are mistaken. Duty to one's country does not only come in one form, nor does understanding sacrifice or things greater than oneself. Understanding of many things can and does come through many ways other than first-hand knowledge, but unfortunately most soldier-types tend to need that kind of visceral reinforcement. Please try not to tell me and others what we can and can't know, or why we can or can't know it.
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Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
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I will post later when I have more time to think.
Although I would like to say at this time that I would not spit on another person as you implied above. I think I am doing my duty by raising questions and not acting like a blind sheep.
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I guess I don't know anything and my opinion about important things like sacrifice and morality and honor isn't valid because I haven't been to war. Sorry for making you all endure my lesser thoughts. I will just let all of you warriors decide what's right and wrong.
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Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
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Well, thanks for trying to understand anyways. People in the military are just the same like you and everyone else. They are fathers, mothers, doctors, students, sons and daughters. They watch TV, listen to radio; they buy newspapers, milk, bread, meat, beer, groceries. They have to eat, sleep, drink, bath, shave, poop. They have to change their babies. They suffer thru loss and feel laughter, joy, sadness and sorrow.
They do all of these things just like you do.
But you don't have to fight, you have that luxury. Maybe you don't want to, maybe you don't need to. For whatever reason, these people volunteered to take up the training and be placed in those situations, to get in harms way. All for you, me, grandma, and fluffy. Whether you asked for it or not, like it or not; these men and women are still out there. Standing tall, guarding and defending proudly.
No one said that you can't say those words like dury, honor, morality, and sacrifices. But your use of those very same words and your understanding is completely different. The perspective is completely different. I didn't use the examples of missing out on one's Starbucks coffee lightly. Think about it, does someone in the military engage in the same type of struggle that you do as a fellow human - maybe not in the same exact routine and schedule; but they have to fight traffic just like you, they have to stand in line at the check out line just like you, and they have to buy food with that measily wee paycheck of theirs just like you (BTW, military make the worst pay, most of them are at below poverty level and have to get food stamps to get their family by. ) Now think about all of the other crap that they *and* their family have to go thru while engaging in combat. They are lucky to have a cold cup of coffee, they are lucky to have clean clothes, and they are certainly lucky if they can get by yet another day without getting their asses shot off. I would say that military people have quite a different perspective when you speak of the word sacrifice and their use of that very same word.
That's all I am talking about. They understand the very same things that you do, except they don't call it a sacrifice. To them, it's every day normal crap that they wish they had. Instead of the "every day normal crap" they have engaging in firefights with people that just absolutely hate your guts. Maybe you can read about it, see it in a movie, or chit-chat it up with your friends while standing around having a brewski; but it just isn't the same, not until you have smelled it, tasted it, have it sting your eyes, feel it jarring your bones, split you open, have it cut down a buddy of yours right next to you right in their prime with all of their hopes and dreams just dashed away in one moment's time. No, it's just not the same.
Look, it's not easy to understand and people who haven't gone thru it likely wouldn't understand it - I don't mean it in a way that you are too stupid to ever "get it". It's just an entirely different world - no one should have to be put thru it at all. But if you can appreciate it, then you can maybe go and just tell a soldier or a vet that you are sorry for what they have to do (and get pay jackshit for doing it) and go thru. Maybe you can share a cup of hot joe and have them tell you a story or two.
Maybe I can illustrate it with another set of words: Horror, Trauma, Anger; and let's compare a rape victim's experience as compared to our experience of those same words - and don't confuse me with someone trivializing a rape victim's experience, I am simply using it as an example of the same powerful emotions and and horrific experience. In fact, I am not going to delve into any details at all - since I have no comparable experience. Yet I am most certain that I use those very same words at work, at play, after watching a movie, during a sports game. See? I can certainly sympathise with the victim and discuss it with them; but in no way am I even going to broach the subject that I can know what they think about when t
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Hmm, I see this thread has risen from the dead, and it's actually pretty good timing as I have managed to come across a great speech by Charles Krauthammer which addresses much of what we're discussing. If you have the attention span for it, it's well worth the read:
http://www.aei.org/news/newsID.19912/news_detail.asp
Definitely check it out.
No power in the 'verse can stop me.
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You don't know me or anything about me. Let me tell you that my father was in the army, my brother in-law is currently high in the armed forces (no-where of anyone's business) and my brother is a doctor in the AF, who was recently in Turkey and Afghanistan. So, when you think you are talking to someone who doesn't know anything and you start shooting your mouth off, let me say, think twice. You're not gonna cow me with your pathetic attempt to undermine my ability to give input on a topic.
For you to say that your experience of something is more valid or should I say BETTER than someone else's because you've been in war is sad and wrong. Especially since you have no idea what experiences other people have been through. Believe it or not, even though war sucks ass, it isn't the worst thing in the world. Do you happen to know everyone? NO. So, quit making these statements saying that your experiences are the be-all-end-all.
And regarding what people in the armed forces call a sacrifice, from my experience with my family, my brother considers every moment away from home as such.
I agree with this---
" ...no one should have to be put thru it at all. But if you can appreciate it, then you can maybe go and just tell a soldier or a vet that you are sorry for what they have to do (and get pay jackshit for doing it) and go thru. Maybe you can share a cup of hot joe and have them tell you a story or two."
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Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
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