the cold hard scientific facts: 9/11 was an inside job
POSTED BY: antimason
UPDATED: Sunday, January 14, 2007 09:17
VIEWED: 15140
PAGE 3 of 13
A child could argue against the claim you made in this post.
Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
youre right... 19 hijackers, whos names werent on the flight manifests..
I haven't seen evidence that this was the case. But are last minute ticket purchases always on flight manifests?
Quote:
turned off all four flight data recorders and tracking systems, seized control with box cutters,
Flight personnel had up until this point been trained NOT TO RESIST hijackers, idiot. Normally they land in Cuba, no one is hurt, and everyone goes home. No one had done this before.
Quote:
and put COMMERCIAL AIRLINERS through maneuvers that trained airforce veterans would struggle with..
Since when did turning a plane become a complex maneuver? I'll bet 99% of this board could "turn joystick to the right" on a plane. It's not like they were doing loops in the air. I'd like to know what maneuvers were complex, since they weren't evading any attack aircraft. The plane was already in the air, and - if you had forgotten - the terrorists were trained pilots.
Quote:
and hit 75% of their targets,
They hit 2 110 story buildings and the pentagon. Have you been to NY? Or Washington? I have, both. I got lost in Washington near the pentagon once - it takes you 20 minutes to drive around it. It's not like they were aiming at a human target; it was like hitting barns with bb's.
Quote:They were hit by PLANES! Filled with FUEL! No shit they fell. It's like saying you saw someone shot with a cannon and were surprised it blew them in half. Why is it so hard to believe? And there are pics of debris outside the pentagon, which you seem to ignore (one of which has an engine and a wing in it).
*causing the first 3 highrises to fall in history due to fire- and an entire 757 to dissapear within the pentagon (without leaving a mark)
Quote:
now that sounds super human! i guess if 19 cave dwelling disinfranchised muslims can do it, anythings possible right???????????????????
What of any of that sounds superhuman? It all sounds logical, to any rational person. To say though, that a crack team of agents infiltrated the towers on government order; planted explosives which would take down the towers; created a national disaster in plain sight; (some theorists believe) that some of the other passengers are still alive somewhere; no one involved has ever spoken out (they found all these people willling to betray their own country (i.e., everyone followed orders - what happened to those who said no, I won't do this - were they all killed?); scientists at reputable mags are in on it; video and pics have been altered; yet only a crack team of two people living in a basement looking on the web could figure it out?
What are you smoking?
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"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
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Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
exactly ... we're trying to wake people up to the truth! otherwise you will go on living your life believing that government is GOOD*-
Funny, I don't recall endorsing the statement that the government was "good". Although I can hardly stand the status quo, that doesn't mean I believe the government would be so foolish as to attack their own country.
However, the idea you are endorsing could hardly be considered "truth". Sevenpercent gives a good argument, I'll just go with what he said.
Quote:
the "right thing" is exposing the true purpetrators behind 9/11.. otherwise it certainly will happen again. the "war on terror" will NEVER EVER EVER PREVENT TERRORISM... it is a front to implement every servelience method under the son, so that one day no one can do anything without being monitored. it wont be evil "islamofascists" behind this afront to freedom, it will be OUR OWN GOVERNMENT- if only we had the wisdom to recognize it as its happening in the present
We shouldn't be in the middle-east, that much I agree on, and we certainly aren't helping to prevent terrorism by accidentally killing of thousands of innocents. We should go back to the isolationist days before WWI, at least then we couldn't be blamed for everything under the sun.
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i am not arguing, i am debating... a debate is an dialogue to uncover truth. those who wish to stifle debate, those in the "if your not with us your with the terrorists" crowd are the most anti- american people i can think of.. don't allow yourself to be conditioned like these neonazis
I'm just fine with debate. You're absolutely right on that, debate should not be stifled.
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exactly.. because both arms are controlled by the same body of Bankers and elitist money runners. the whole system is flawed, and it must be exposed to the lights of public scrutiny before the status quo can be broken
Agreed. The system is majorly flawed.
Quote:
no, because protecting the liberties of innocent people is the right thing to do, and because avioding war and conflict is the right thing to do. these days its rare, but more vital than ever to put your name and life on the line for truth
That, I can agree with. All by itself, that statement rules. Rights are important.
And I agree completely with Sevenpercent.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BuffaloPhil:
However, the idea you are endorsing could hardly be considered "truth". Sevenpercent gives a good argument, I'll just go with what he said.
Thanks for the compliment.
Look, Antimason, take a look at what you're asking anyone to believe-
If it was (as most people believe) as the news media says, you would need:
*1 Leader Type (to come up with the plan, or to organize)
*1 Lieutenant type (or contact type, to give direction)
*19 volunteers with a creative plan, which only included: Taking advantage of a weak airline system with lax security and policies, flight training with no oversight available to anyone with money, and finding a (huge) target (gigantic buildings).
It's not overly complex, or unimaginable.
To have a conspiracy of the magnitude you suggest, you need:
*A leader type capable of plotting the deaths of his own citizens
*A cabal of behind the scenes men with the same goals capable of getting that man into power
*A number of men to contact the people you'd need to carry out that type of mission (CIA chief, FBI chief, ATF chief, NSA chief, Homeland Sec chief)
*A number of specially trained personnel capable of laying the foundation (demolition experts, intelligence people, etc.), all willing to murder innocent people and say nothing
*A number of people paid off to not notice what those specialists are doing (building security, police, witnesses), all willing to murder innocents and say nothing
*Enough funds, persuasion, people to pay off scientists to "agree" to reports that the buildings could fall if they really couldn't; and to stay secret, basically covering up the murder of innocents and remaining silent
*Enough cash to bribe photographers to alter pictures of the aftereffects of the disasters; and to stay secret, basically covering up the murder of innocents and remaining silent
**(two stars for this one) Some survivors of the planes paid off enough to remain on a desert island somewhere, complicit in the murder of innocents (as some of the more radical have suggested)
**Logically, a number of people who could murder people who chose not to be complicit, thereby threatening the secrecy of the operation.
Yet, all of this able to be figured out by a couple guys using grainy video footage, posted to a website or two? And, after all the behind the scenes work needed to get that conspiracy off, them able to get that info out without being killed and that info vanishing?
What is suggested by the conspiracy theorists is so complex and improbable as to be ludicrous.
------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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Quote:Good. Unless we agree with Dr. Fetzer’s unsupported interpretation of events we are slaves? The typical argument of cultism. In order to free our minds, we must stop thinking for ourselves and let Dr. Fetzer think for us. For godsakes don’t drink the Kool-Aid, kids!!!
Originally posted by antimason:
i want it to be clear by the end of this thread that only elements within the US government could have orchestrated 9/11. the relevence of this subject is so great that it alters all that is generally accepted among corporate mainstream media and popular history. unless you include the coverup of 9/11 as a premise to your worldview, along with its subsequent ramifications.. you will forever be stuck within the controlled paradigm of corporate media and its banking slavemasters
Dr. Fetzer is entitled to his opinion, but he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and he’s not even qualified to speculate on the topic. He’s a history professor, not a scientist. Few of the arguments he’s made are cogent or supportable and most of them are refuted by real scientists.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
So, none of you three even bothered to watch the video, right?
HKCavalier
.
After y2k, I made a vow to stop wasting my time on conspiracy theories and nut case claims. A brief list of claims that I won't bother even wasting my time 'looking into' -
The Earth is flat.
The Earth is only 6,000 - 10,000 yrs old. ( The timeline of the Bible is 100% accurate )
9/11 was an inside job
The Lochness Monster is a long lost Plesiosaur type sea lizard from the Mesozic era.
The 'face' on Mars was made by an ancient civilization.
The Holocaust didn't happen, or was vastly exaggerated.
We've been 'visited' by aliens from outter space.
There was more than 1 gunman that murdered JFK
Global warming is 'man made' , or even remotely influenced by mankind.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Hey 7%,
I mean no disrespect to Antimason, but I think the video he posted makes a much more troubling argument for conspiracy than his posts here do. I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the video, particularly the twenty minute clip from the documentary at the end.
I think what's needed for the kind of conspiracy Antimason is suggesting is true believers. People who think human survival against the international muslim conspiracy is worth taking extraordinary risks and suffering extraordinary loss of life to combat. People convinced that the smoking gun is gonna be a mushroom cloud, for instance. What you need is a central hub of corrupt folk willing to manipulate the hell out of these true believers.
I guess what you need is some kind of "secret society" or "secret government" made up of fanatics who think they alone know "what's really going on." Keepers of "secret knowledge," dangerous knowledge that would drive ordinary people mad if they were to grasp "the truth." Yes, elitists who think that ordinary people are inferior, irredemably confused, sheeple.
Look at the Final Solution. Corrupt cabal at it's center (Hitler and his inner circle had nothing but contempt for ordinary Germans), true believers doing a lot of the dirty work (propagandizing the general populace so their proper "masters" can go about the great business of history undisturbed), and still a huge number of "orders followers" who simply trusted their government. Did the Nazis have to pay off vast numbers of people to keep the destruction of the jews quiet?
We have a media that voluntarily censors itself where "national security" is at stake. And an "opposition party" who's interests are so vested in the status quo that the kind of governemental upheaval needed to deal with a Nazi-esque conspiracy in their midst is "unthinkable."
And we have no end of people who simply refuse to believe that such a thing is even possible. When such people are scientists, they come up with their best explanation for what "must have happened," free of charge. When they're in the media, they dismiss the "tin foil hat brigade" out of hand, free of charge. When they are members of the government, they keep any "wild supposition" they may have to themselves out of loyalty or the need for job security, free of charge. They just keep telling themselves, "It couldn't have happened, it couldn't have happened, it couldn't have happened."
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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For those people who would like to see what the experts have to say on the topic: here is the FAQ on the NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) website which refutes every claim made in Dr. Fetzer’s interpretation.
NIST investigated the collapse, using actual science.
"In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view."
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Hey Finn,
That is the best analysis of the WTC catastrophy that I have read. Thank you.
I'm so glad NIST does not endorse the "pancake theory," for instance. I thought Fetzer's debunking of that theory was one of his strongest points. It's also very gratifying to see an analysis of the calapse of the buildings which accounts specifically for the seismic record, and the "plumes of smoke." The only thing they missed from Fetzer's video (maybe I missed it) was the concrete "ash" in the lobbies "consistent with high explosives."
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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THE CONSPIRACY THEORISTS
------------------------------
Something has always bothered me about conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories generally follow a simple pattern.
1) Something happens. (Well, the theory has to be about something.)
2) Someone benefits from something happening/someone benefits from something happening but remaining secret.
3) A super-complex series of events is set in motion by the party referenced in #2 above which either caused #1, caused #1 to remain a secret, or caused #1 to be blamed on a third party.
Now, I'm not naive or a fool. I believe that things happen. Things happen every day. These things sometimes benefit someone, and sometimes knowledge about them would hurt someone. Sometimes people take steps to make things happen, sometimes people take staps to keep those things secret, and sometimes they take steps to see that someone else is blamed for it.
I'm with you so far, conspiracy theorists. In fact, most premeditated murders fall into the conspiracy formula rather nicely.
But why does #3 universally include a super-complex series of events? Why do the conspirators in these theories always use 999 mirrors and smoke machines when 1 will do quite adequately?
Let's take 9/11 as an example.
Supposedly we're dealing not with terrorists, but with highly trained operatives (or sometimes specially converted robot planes under military control.)
Sometimes, we're not dealing with passenger liners, but rather with special military airplanes.
Sometimes, we're not dealing with military airplanes, but rather with cruise missiles.
Sometimes, they add hundreds of specially made and secretly planted demolitions charges into the mix.
Now, this all seems needlessly complex to me. Rediculously so. Wouldn't it be easier to use intelligence sources to fund real terrorist cells to provide real terrorists to a real terrorist plot to steal and crash airliners? I mean, why the fuss? These people don't even need to know who they are working for.
And why would the conspirators need demolition charges or missiles or any of that nonsense? If airliners plummet into buildings, you've got stark raving terror and a cessation of air travel and all the disruption you could ask for. Whether the buildings collapse or not is immaterial. At least hundreds and possibly thousands of people will die anyway. All the disruption will happen anyway. No demolitions? No problem. We're still disrupted.
Just for once I'd like to hear a reasonable, plausible conspiracy theory. One that's simple and straightforward. You know... the kind that actually might happen.
Conspiracy theorists actually remind me of the Men In Black as they appeared in the television show The X-Files. In that show, when people saw real extra-terrestrial craft, they were visited by mysterious Men In Black. These men would drive up in mysterious black cars and wear mysterious black suits and black glasses and then they would tell the witness ominously, "What you saw was swamp gas reflecting light from the planet Venus!" And then they'd drive away. The story of the Men In Black was so rediculous that when the witness told the story about what he saw, and the following encounter with the Man In Black, he was laughed at. The addition of the rediculous detail of the Men In Black made the sighting unreasonably strange and stupid.
That's what Conspiracy Theorists do. They take a situation that might be believable, and then cock it up with rediculous complexity. Thus making the situation unbelievable.
Maybe they work for the government?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Anthony, I'm with you on the general obsession of the avid conspiracy theorists to get pretty baroque with their explanations. And certainly, part of it has to do with serious oedipal weirdness about authority and evil--I mean, it can be much easier for the psyche to deal with a specific evil enemy than it is to deal with ambiguity and happenstance, incompetance and failure. People want explanations and they want romance.
But part of the wacky extravagance of some theories is due to the official stories just not holding water and having nothing else to go on. They know the official story is crap, but they have nothing solid with which to counter it. So, they let their imaginations go...where they go.
You lost me here though:
Quote:Okay, let's take a real conspiracy, a real doozie that did happen, like the Final Solution. By your reasoning, it would be acceptible that the Nazis made laws restricting jews' movement, maybe ghettoizing them. But roaving bands of killers in trucks rounding them up and shooting them in the back of the skull and throwing the bodies into mass graves? C'mon! But the conspiracy theorists don't stop there, oh no, the Nazis shipped jews--get this--to "extermination camps," gassed them in gas chambers disguised as showers and burned the evindence in giant ovens! That kind of thing would require a vast beaurocracy, hundreds if not thousands of people would have to be kept silent--it's just not possible.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Just for once I'd like to hear a reasonable, plausible conspiracy theory. One that's simple and straightforward. You know... the kind that actually might happen.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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