General Discussions

Television Rant: Prove me wrong.

POSTED BY: HiroStone
UPDATED: Monday, February 23, 2004 16:35
VIEWED: 13366
PAGE 6 of 6

ARAWAEN

Friday, February 20, 2004 5:21 PM

Get well soon.

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

ARAWAEN

Friday, February 20, 2004 5:26 PM

Quote:
Even our presidental candidates all make an attempt to look like "just plain folks" Bush has his ranch. Edwards has his story about his milkman father, growing up poor. Clinton childhood was anything but privileged. At least that is the offical narative. Now, if class consciousness was such a big issue, why shoot for portraying yourself as lower class, instead of upper crust?

They do it because they are courting the favor of the lower classes. They want everyone to believe that they understand the condition of the everyman. It is one of the many insincerities that passes for integrity in American politics. If class consciousness wasn't such a big issue they wouldn't bother, but it is, so they do.

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

BROWNCOAT1

Friday, February 20, 2004 6:40 PM

Drakon wrote:

Quote:
Ye Gods and little fishes. Do you realize just how this sounds? Maybe the reason why thing have not gone that far is that those "sheep" see war as far to risky to what they have now, or can see obtaining in the future. But because they don't run out and man the barricades and start shooting people for your point of view, they are "sheep".

Yes, there is no revolutionary spirit in the proletariat. Not because they are stupid, or frightened, but because they see what they got as better than what their grandparents had.

But I think there is something else at work here. Things have changed too much since the last war, such that the political fault lines are not about slavery, or state's rights or whatever. Its more along libertarian/communitarian lines. Or to put it more bluntly, between the NRA and Handgun Control Inc. Who would you pick in such a fight?

Civil ain't going to happen any time soon, because frankly, one of the sides does not have the military expertese to fight.

You misunderstood what I said. Nowhere did I say I advocate violence or a civil war. I answered a question and gave my reason for why it is not probable that a civil conflict take place.

By calling people sheep, I mean that they are so ingrossed in their own little worlds, that they simply plod along, following the general population. Many do not vote because they think "what difference will my one vote make". Many are not active in their community, children's school, or can even be bothered to pick up trash when taking a walk through their own neighborhood. I did not equate sheep to not fighting for some foolish cause. Bit of a misconception on your part.

Quote:
There is a big problem with this line of reasoning. Well several. Michael Jackson is in severe legal trouble, despite his celebrity status. The former CEO of Enron had to surrender to authorities just yesterday. Martha Stewart is on trial. So we see that celebrity status is not a guarentee of a free pass as you make it out to be.

For every one celebrity that you name in trouble w/ the law, I can name one that used their power or money to do what you or I can not. OJ Simpson got away w/ murder. Heather French, Ms America 2000, married the Lt Govnr of KY, hits and kills a pedistrian while talking on her cell phone. She has not spent one day in jail, and charges were dropped and the family of the victim paid off. Why? The vehicle she was driving is a state gov't vehicle and she was supposedly acting in a state gov't capacity. Imminent domain, the law can't touch her. How many other examples are there that the public is aware of where people abuse such power.

I really am interested in seeing just how much trouble Michael Jackson is really in. How many times has this situation of little boys come up now? Half a dozen? Each time he pays them off out of court, case dropped. Sounds like money and priveledge to me. Never served any time. If it was me or you, we would be in jail.

CEO of Enron. Still waiting to see where that goes. Most likely what will happen is he will turn evidence on others to get a pardon or reduced sentence, spend some time in Club Fed and get his sentence reduced for good behavior. Problem is all that money will never turn up and those people are still out of work.

Martha Stewart? We'll see.

Quote:
The second, more important problem is the inherent assumption that the "haves" got it by cheating, defrauding customers, or stealing in some manner. The idea that they might have created something of value, that folks voluntarily gave their own money for, seems absent.

Never said the "haves" cheated or stole to get their wealth. I am sure they are all not squeaky clean, but not all of them worked for that money (Paris Hilton).

Quote:
Bill Gates has a big house, Da Vinci's Codex, and a garage that looks like the batcave. But rather than forcing anyone to give him a dime, he offered a product that was cheap to build, and higly valuable to the market. So lots of folks,

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DRAKON

Friday, February 20, 2004 10:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Arawaen:
I honestly don't know if it was Drakon or Browncoat1 (or even somebody else) who said the above, post was confusing (missing an end quote). But as you can see it touched a nerve in me. I don't mean to flame or anything.

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

It was me. And sorry, I ain't buying it. Ken Lay may have had a meeting with the President, and even given him a lot of money, but a fat lot of good its going to do while he is in jail.

There has been a lot of talk about power, but it seems that a lot of folks don't see the limitations of that power, especially in politics. Or even how that power is obtained in the first place.

Bill did not get any pope to declare him King. He made a product, he had to work at it to get people to give him money of their own free will. His work was more mental than physical, and a lot of folks don't get how he did it. But it was Bill who created his wealth. It was not handed to him, without effort of his own. He had to work for it.

I think you have confused the trappings of power with an aristocracy. They do look pretty similar on a superficial level. But Bill's vaste wealth can disappear overnight, if he screws up. A lot of wealthy men lost their fortunes exactly like that back in 1929. Ken's seeing the effects of his actions even as we speak. And he ain't getting a jury of lords, but of us common folk. Just like everyone else.

And if the wealth is gone, what are they then? No titles, no reprieve, nothing.

So sorry, Wilson and Herbert were simply wrong.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

DRAKON

Friday, February 20, 2004 10:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Arawaen:

They do it because they are courting the favor of the lower classes. They want everyone to believe that they understand the condition of the everyman. It is one of the many insincerities that passes for integrity in American politics. If class consciousness wasn't such a big issue they wouldn't bother, but it is, so they do.

Grin, that is exactly the problem. If this really were an upper class, they would not have to peddle such stuff, true or not, to us 'peasants'. WE have the power to decide the Presidency, us 'peasants'. Not the would be lords and ladies.

And if you ain't even got the power to decide who the king is, well what kind of aristocracy is that?

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

DRAKON

Friday, February 20, 2004 11:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
You misunderstood what I said. Nowhere did I say I advocate violence or a civil war. I answered a question and gave my reason for why it is not probable that a civil conflict take place.

By calling people sheep, I mean that they are so ingrossed in their own little worlds, that they simply plod along, following the general population. Many do not vote because they think "what difference will my one vote make". Many are not active in their community, children's school, or can even be bothered to pick up trash when taking a walk through their own neighborhood. I did not equate sheep to not fighting for some foolish cause. Bit of a misconception on your part.

I did not misunderstand you one bit. The problem is that you are a minority, and hold a minority opinion. Most people disagree or for whatever reason refuse to do what you want them to. Whether it is vote, go to school board meetings, or even armed insurrection over a tv show. (Yes I know very well that you are arguing against it.) That is what makes them sheep, in your opinion.

It makes them not sheep but people different from you, people who ain't you. You have no idea what their lives are like, what is going on inside their skulls, what is important to them. Nor show the slightest sign of giving a damn. Because they don't act the way you want them to, you decide they are not even human, just sheep.

Quote:
For every one celebrity that you name in trouble w/ the law, I can name one that used their power or money to do what you or I can not. OJ Simpson got away w/ murder. Heather French, Ms America 2000, married the Lt Govnr of KY, hits and kills a pedistrian while talking on her cell phone. She has not spent one day in jail, and charges were dropped and the family of the victim paid off. Why? The vehicle she was driving is a state gov't vehicle and she was supposedly acting in a state gov't capacity. Imminent domain, the law can't touch her. How many other examples are there that the public is aware of where people abuse such power.

I really am interested in seeing just how much trouble Michael Jackson is really in. How many times has this situation of little boys come up now? Half a dozen? Each time he pays them off out of court, case dropped. Sounds like money and priveledge to me. Never served any time. If it was me or you, we would be in jail.

CEO of Enron. Still waiting to see where that goes. Most likely what will happen is he will turn evidence on others to get a pardon or reduced sentence, spend some time in Club Fed and get his sentence reduced for good behavior. Problem is all that money will never turn up and those people are still out of work.

Martha Stewart? We'll see.

So... what exactly is getting you bothered here? OJ got off, because he had a good lawyer (Actuallyt word I have heard is that LAPD think it was his son, and that OJ was covering, but that is another story) The other cases, Gov of KY, I have never heard of, so can't comment.

As for Jackson paying off the plaintiffs, I find that extremely troubling as well. But is the fault in the system, or the problem with the kid's parents essentially pimping him out?

Yes, money allows you to hire a better lawyer. It also allows you to buy a better dinner or go to a fancier restarant. That is kind of the point of having lots of it, being able to do things that you could not otherwise. And yes it is a double edged sword, it can be used for either good or ill. (Much like an interdimensional law firm)

Quote:
Never said the "haves" cheated or stole to get their wealth. I am sure they are all not squeaky clean, but not all of them worked for that money (Paris Hilton).

Its daddy's money in this case, not yours. You don't want me coming in and telling you what you can do with your money, I think Mr. Hilton feels the same way.

Quote:
Never said Bill didn't offer up a useful product, and made a fortune doing so, but many question the need for the constant upgrades and the cost

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BROWNCOAT1

Monday, February 23, 2004 4:35 PM

Drakon wrote:

Quote:
I did not misunderstand you one bit. The problem is that you are a minority, and hold a minority opinion. Most people disagree or for whatever reason refuse to do what you want them to. Whether it is vote, go to school board meetings, or even armed insurrection over a tv show. (Yes I know very well that you are arguing against it.) That is what makes them sheep, in your opinion.

It makes them not sheep but people different from you, people who ain't you. You have no idea what their lives are like, what is going on inside their skulls, what is important to them. Nor show the slightest sign of giving a damn. Because they don't act the way you want them to, you decide they are not even human, just sheep.

LOL!

Where to start here. YES, yes you did misunderstand me, not only a bit, but completely.

What "minority" am I supposed to be in? Looking at my posts, I do not see where I declared for any side against another, nor have I professed any wrong doing against me personally by anyone. I did not claim "Most people disagree or for whatever reason refuse to do what you want them to. Whether it is vote, go to school board meetings, or even armed insurrection over a tv show". Not really sure where your little rant is coming from there.

To use your own words against you "You have no idea what their lives are like, what is going on inside their skulls, what is important to them. Nor show the slightest sign of giving a damn".

As for the sheep thing, as I have said before, that was not meant as a deragatory term for people, but rather a comparison to the tendancy of the population of this country to follow where ever the gov't may lead, generally without question, to take as gospel everything handed to them. If you don't believe me, that is your issue, not mine. As you so eloquently put it, "you have no idea what is going on inside my skull", so with all due respect your misconception has been shown in error. I have politely told you twice your perception of my use of the term is incorrect. At this point I don't care if you believe me or not. That is your hang up.

As for the not giving a damn part, please refer to your words ""You have no idea what their lives are like, what is going on inside their skulls, what is important to them." If I didn't give a damn, I wouldn't be in the Big Brother/Big Sister Program, I wouldn't have served ten years in the military, I wouldn't be involved in my Community Watch program, my kids PTA, the local Jaycees, or donate the money and time I do to Habitat for Humanity, St Judes Childrens Fund, the United Way, or the American Cancer Society. But since you are gifted and can see what is "going on inside my skull" when no one else has that ability, I guess you see all of my time and effort is simply a smoke screen.

Funny, I would have thought from past posts you were a bit more intelligent and choose your words a bit more carefully.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."