Angel -- "The Jasmine Arc: Atheism for Dummies"

POSTED BY: Novagrass
UPDATED: Friday, February 20, 2004 21:39
VIEWED: 20625
PAGE 7 of 7

Quote:

---

Originally posted by BlackEyedGirl:
Atheism. Ah my old friend. I'm a devout atheist and anyone who says that an atheist had no faith to lose is dead off. I wanted to believe, I wanted a mechanism that would give my life meaning and purpose. I wanted the ability to think that when things happen to me, it's out of my control, that someone else guided and scripted the whole thing. But life doesn't work that way. Sh*t happens.

---

I really liked this post. I ain't an atheist, I define myself as the opposite of an agnostic. Agnostics doubt there is no God, I doubt that there isn't one. If that makes any sense, welcome to my world.

I hang with pagans alot, mostly because paganism is still such a generic rubric that can allow any theological belief. Allows me the freedom to sort out the answers myself, rather than sit quietly and have it handed to me.

As for "meaning" and "purpose", these are not real things. These are mental constructs. When you ask what the meaning of something is, what it represents, or stands in for, you (well, I at any rate) have to ask, "Meaning to who? In whose mind does this mean that?"

The same goes with purpose. Both concepts inherently imply some intelligence. And then the question becomes which intelligence, and more importantly, which intelligence whose meaning should be used.

In another thread there was discussion of the Civil War. The Confederate flag is to some seen as a symbol of racism. To others, a symbol of state's rights, or rebelling against authority, with the racist concept stripped clear. Same image, two different meanings.

So who is right? Unfortunately, right don't enter in to it. In the minds of some, that flag means one thing. That is a fact. In the minds of others, it means something completely different. That is also a fact, and both groups will act as if the flag means exactly what they think it means, because to them, it does mean what they think it means.

[Same can be said of the swastika. P.J.O'Rourke talks about a trip to India, when he sees a logo for one of the national political parties, comprising a swastika, an om, and a second swatiska. To western eyes, it looks pretty odd. P.J. interpreted it as "Seig Heil, Inner Peace, Seig Heil"]

Quote:

---

I believe that there doesn't have to be a why, because I think the answer is, we just are.

---

Well I ain't so negative as that. I got a brain, which means I can create my own meaning, or purpose. We may just be, but so?

We don't live in isolation, and the universe works the way it does. And is completely insensate to my desires, wishes, hopes or wants. I do have to figure out how this world works. (The next, I figure there will be plenty of time for that later.) The reason for that is to get the universe to do what I want, create the effects from my actions that I find desirable, beneficial, and keeps me from getting killed.

So, figure out what you want to do, and figure out how the 'verse works. Then once you got those two, you can figure out how to get from where you are, to where you want to go.


"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

NOTIFY: N  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Idefix:
I think the world would be a better place if there were no religions and people were taught to think for themselves and act according to that and be responsible for what they do.

---

Not so sure about that. I will note that early Americans were for the most part Christian Protestants of one stripe or another. Quakers, Puritans, Baptist, etc. From those various Protestant traditions, (well Protestantism in general) the concept of individual freedom and rights came about.

Do you really think any power structure would allow that to happen, if that power structure were not, at least conceptually or rhetorically, beholden to some divine authority?

Governments and politics come about because you have a bunch of folks all trying to accomplish similar goals, like not getting eaten by lions. To coordinate something like defenses, someone has to be put in charge. Or else, someone with the biggest guns and the will to use it, declares himself Leader, and force everyone to do their bidding.

Along the way, the "divine right of kings" came about. Which was one way to keep the aristocracy under the influence of the Church (notably in western tradition, the Catholic Church). This proved to be more beneficial than declaring the Emperor God, as that put an authority over the king.

Also, out of the Protestant Revolution, (and the various wars fought over the issue), we ended up with the concept of freedom of religion. Your interpretation of the Bible may be just as right as mine, even if your interpretation is that I am completely nuts. But we can tolerate each other, agree to disagree, and live happier.

What this does in turn, is again, give folks the freedom to listen to what the divine tells them personally. To figure out moral questions, meaning and purpose of life, etc. Discuss, debate, and all that jazz, and in the process improve on how we think the universe works, and thereby figure out ways to provide for more and more of our desires.

Why is it western culture has spread, has shown itself to be so successful, while much of the rest of the planet has lagged behind? Technically, economically, politically, militarily, and culturally, the west came up with a conceptual framework that has proven more successful, and faster at achieving that success, than any competitors. I don't think anyone can argue some kind of racial superiority, so it must be some cultural factors that got us where we are today.

Religious tolerance leads to tolerance in other areas of thought. Selecting your own congregation's deacons, (Presbyterians) or even your own pastor (Congregationalists) leads to picking your own leaders in other areas, such as political governments. Even if you "know" the One True Way, it is the tolerance of all those folks who are simply mistaken, (but maybe they might have a good point here and there) that leads to developments that improve your lives, as well as those of the heathens.

"Knowing" God sees mankind as special, instead of just an animal or "biot" (a biological robot. Does exactly what it is programmed to do), well, its a great self esteam booster for some. And can lead you to try things that otherwise you would not. Thinking one is nothing, that whatever you do does not matter, well, that is not good for getting things done.

Quote:

---

and now you've all figured out that I'm anti-authoritarian at heart. I hate being told because I believe in myself and the power of my own mind and the judgement of my own conscience.

---

This is the ultimate irony as I see it. This very anti-authoritarianism is a direct result of religious influences and thinking. Would we have the Internet, if Martin Luther had not nailed those complaints to the church door? Or if the Catholic church decided that "thou shalt not kill" did not apply to this apostate heretic? (Granted they did try for some time, but the weight of the Protestant Revolution kind of forced that back. It was losing them buns in the seats, and cutting into to the tithes they were collecting.)

NOTIFY: N  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I'm not really sure what to answer. I don't think I (or any other human being) need the 'knowledge' (that is exactly _not_ knowledge but believe) of a god that loves them (and I never saw the christian god as a 'loving' one, much too much hate and violence in the bible for it, too much commandments and too little encouragement to think on your own and decide for yourself) to find out that humans are something other than animals or maschines. I believe us thinking about anything is what makes us different but I don't believe it makes us superior, just different.

I don't need a god to tell me what I should do and I sure don't need one to find meaning in my life. we can find meaning in any number of things to do. causes to support. friends to help. loved ones to make happy. kids to raise. even businesses to run. whatever. I don't see any need for a god there but that's just me obviously. I can acknowledge myself for what I am without being created by god and loved by god and planned by god. I know that I exist because my parents wanted a child and they are proud of me and they love me and so do my friends and they all do it because I am who I am and that's what I cherish and live for.

I'm not sure where we would be without christian religion and it's really hard to speculate. maybe the same people would have come up with the same ideas of freedom if there was no church to oppress them. the government would have done that on its own pretty effectively I think. it's about the same fight: freedom of thought. if the rules come from the church or the government doesn't matter that much, does it?

I don't know why we western cultures are the 'elite' nowadays. I don't even believe it really. again not superior but simply different. I'm not into being overly proud of myself or my country or my culture or whatever. humility is something I value greatly in a human being, because I think we really don't deserve to act all superior to everyone and everything else. maybe we have more materially because the country we come from has good natural resources and we manged to use them early on and trade and learn and develop.

I'm no history buff and what we learn in history lessons over here in germany greatly varies from what you learn in the US. so we probably have not much common knowledge to draw from, even if I should know more about Luther than you but I really don't. I probably know more about the roman empire than I know about the US but then again maybe not but the focus is a different one at least. we look at the US in a totally different light than you do. we even look at ourself much more from the outside in. it's our way of viewing and dealing with being german and having to live with ancestors that made big mistakes none of us can change and none of the others will ever forget. we simply are not proud to be german anymore because that's what lead to the holocaust. we are tought to be ashamed and we don't really get whatfor because we are new people that have done nothing wrong. so we are a bit cynical and seem to view everyone and everything from the outside. and I think it becomes us, it sure becomes me. I will never own a flag of any country and I will never judge people for what their grandparents did. I'll only frown at them if they are proud of their countries achievements and they know as well as I do how those 'achievements' were obtained. we all have bad history but some of us acknowledge it as such and others gloss it over. having acknowledged your own countries bad history you get to a state of expecting the same from everyone else. so it's good in a way to come from a nation with obvious bad history because you learn early on what to be proud of and what not. personal achievements seem to fall into category one whereas simply being born in a specific country or of a specific race or religion falls into category two.

but again that's not really on topic anymore. I can't really argue what we would be like if we never believed in god because it's just not that easy to tell. believing in god seems to be some

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Idefix:
I will never own a flag of any country and I will never judge people for what their grandparents did. I'll only frown at them if they are proud of their countries achievements and they know as well as I do how those 'achievements' were obtained. we all have bad history but some of us acknowledge it as such and others gloss it over. having acknowledged your own countries bad history you get to a state of expecting the same from everyone else. so it's good in a way to come from a nation with obvious bad history because you learn early on what to be proud of and what not. personal achievements seem to fall into category one whereas simply being born in a specific country or of a specific race or religion falls into category two.
Idefix

---

It's too bad Americans are not taught about the mistakes of our forefathers. I, for one, love my country and my flag, but I am keenly aware of whose backs were broken to build it into what it is. I see the flag as representing the Constitution, not the government, therefore I am proud of it. The U.S. government has done many bad things, several as bad as anything the German government did. The point is to learn from those mistakes, which Americans are not allowed to. The subject of Native Americans is kind of glossed over, as is the subject of slavery. (BTW - the Civil War was not fought to free the slaves, that was just a brilliant military tactic to incite insurrection.) The U.S. helped the U.K. overthrow Iran's democratically elected leader over an oil company, put Sadaam Hussein in power, gave him weapons to gas his own people, then sold weapons to his enemy. Yet we have the nerve to ask, "Why do they hate us?" We have been tinkering with Mideast politics for over 50 years, someone just finally tinkered back. I think the U.S. has a lot to learn from Germany and the rest of the world, especially humility.

Can you believe Ashcroft had the nerve to warn us about the dangers of corruption in the government? Who does he think he works for?

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Idefix:
I'm not really sure what to answer. I don't think I (or any other human being) need the 'knowledge' (that is exactly _not_ knowledge but believe) of a god that loves them (and I never saw the christian god as a 'loving' one, much too much hate and violence in the bible for it, too much commandments and too little encouragement to think on your own and decide for yourself) to find out that humans are something other than animals or maschines. I believe us thinking about anything is what makes us different but I don't believe it makes us superior, just different.

---

Ah, but this is the 21st century. You have to admit that you are a product of 5 thousand years of recorded history and culture, as well as what else came before that. Maybe in today's world, you don't. But what about earlier?

The big reason atheism has its somewhat mainstream status is due to the sucess of the scientific method. But that success would not exist if the Catholic Church had tried to argue against it, and the Aquinine split between practical and revealed knowledge was not created.

And again, there is the idea that the universe is God's creation. We often try to discern the thinking of artists by analysing their artwork. Thinking of the entire verse as one massive kinetic sculpture, means one can divine the thinking of God from observing and learning about how the universe works.

Quote:

---

I'm not sure where we would be without christian religion and it's really hard to speculate. maybe the same people would have come up with the same ideas of freedom if there was no church to oppress them. the government would have done that on its own pretty effectively I think. it's about the same fight: freedom of thought. if the rules come from the church or the government doesn't matter that much, does it?

---

Actually I think one can see what the world would be like. At the risk of sounding bigoted, I would like to point out the difference in technical progress between Europe (and America, commonalities in culture here, although there is some problems here in that America had a large contingent of dissenters from European authority) and China, or the Arab world. They've lagged behind Europe technically and in the concept of freedom, well... take a look sometimes.

The idea of freedom is dangerous to a political power structure. And because of that, without some higher authority to appeal to, any government is going to have to stamp out the concept, in order to protect their own phoney balony jobs.

Democracy is highly chaotic and unpredictable. And the wars between Athens and Sparta illustrates the flaws associated with the concept of democracy, how subseptiable it is to a more totalitarian state.

Quote:

---

I don't know why we western cultures are the 'elite' nowadays. I don't even believe it really. again not superior but simply different. I'm not into being overly proud of myself or my country or my culture or whatever. humility is something I value greatly in a human being, because I think we really don't deserve to act all superior to everyone and everything else. maybe we have more materially because the country we come from has good natural resources and we manged to use them early on and trade and learn and develop.

---

No, its ideas. Natural resources don't mean anything if you don't get up off your butt and do it. And that includes the most important resource in the verse, that grey stuff between your ears.

And if you don't think you can, or should, for whatever reason, you won't.

What is the difference between Hong Kong, and the rest of China? East and West Germany? North and South Korea? In each case the place with the greater amount of individual freedom has been far more successful by any objective standard, than its counterpart. Hong Kong had nothing in the way of natural resources. It did inherent England's concept of freedom, and that really made all the difference.

Quote:

---

I will never own a flag of any country and I will never judge people f

NOTIFY: N  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME