My theory about guns in Firefly
POSTED BY: Ringwraith
UPDATED: Thursday, January 2, 2003 01:21
VIEWED: 41138
PAGE 3 of 15
Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:
I believe it is implied (if it hasn't been stated directly) that FTL space travel does not exist in Firefly.
I'm confused, then. These various Earthlike planets aren't all in the Sol system, are they? They are working on the outer boundaries of an interstellar Alliance, correct?
If so, then they better have FTL spacecraft, or there's going to be a lot of time between episodes. I mean, for them just to get to Alpha Centauri would take four years ... meaning the next episode of Firefly would be due sometime in 2006 or 2007.
Dakota Smith
No human being has the right -- under any circumstances -- to initiate force against another human being, nor to advocate or delegate its initiation.
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While small energy weapons may be possible in this time, there are a few things to remember:
1) Those who lost the war and didn't join the Alliance probably don't have them (i.e., Mal and company);
2) Items that small would require manufacturing facilities not available on most of the outer worlds (things like the maglev for the train are probably made off-world and imported);
3) Because of the scale needed for manufacturing, it would be easier for the authorities to control and limit production and distribution. I can make a rifle in a machine shop in my basement; power cells and microprocessors need more elaborate facilities.
4) They are harder to repair. Sure, they have no moving parts, but they do have more elaborate construction (e.g., microprocessors and lasers). If your CD player and 1960s turn-table both broke, which would be simpler to fix if you had to do it yourself?
5) They're less efficient. Even if the technology to do it exists, it's still more power and complexity than a traditional firearm.
6) They're harder to reload. Access to electricity is not a guarantee, and the amount of power needed to run one of those weapons is a significant road block. If I'm trapped on some backwater planet, I'm more likely to find (or be able to construct) facilities to repair my pistol or knife. When the chip that controls the light intensity of my energy weapon dies, who's going to replace it?
I don't know the state of energy weapon technology on Firefly, but I'm betting it isn't good enough to possessed by the crew of Serenity or those with whom they interact.
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Quote:
Originally posted by DakotaSmith:Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:
I believe it is implied (if it hasn't been stated directly) that FTL space travel does not exist in Firefly.
I'm confused, then. These various Earthlike planets aren't all in the Sol system, are they? They are working on the outer boundaries of an interstellar Alliance, correct?
If so, then they better have FTL spacecraft, or there's going to be a lot of time between episodes. I mean, for them just to get to Alpha Centauri would take four years ... meaning the next episode of Firefly would be due sometime in 2006 or 2007.
Those are some good points. I wonder how Joss is going to explain this? In the B5 universe there was no FTL technology but everyone used "hyperspace" to get from A-B faster.
Hope he can come up with an explanation for this one. I don't mind revolvers and such, that's cool, but he might have some 'splaining to do to explain how his ships get to their destinations quickly.
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"How will this end?"
"In fire."
--Babylon 5, 'The Coming of Shadows'
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Quote:
Originally posted by teraph:
Those who lost the war and didn't join the Alliance probably don't have them (i.e., Mal and company);
Um ... why?
The parallels to the American Civil War and the war with the Alliance are striking (I assume they're intentional). The South didn't lose all their arms back to the flintlock after losing to the North. Why would this be true of the browncoats?
Also, if this is the case, that the loser are being denied arms, there ought to be an enormous amount of money to be had by the Serenity's crew in just running guns to former browncoat worlds.
It's a truism that whenever government outlaws something, it creates a black market that gets filled (see Prohibition, the War on Some Drugs, victim disarmament, and so on). Surely this would be as true 500 years from now as it was 500 years ago.
Quote:
Items that small would require manufacturing facilities not available on most of the outer worlds (things like the maglev for the train are probably made off-world and imported);
You might have a point with this one.
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Because of the scale needed for manufacturing, it would be easier for the authorities to control and limit production and distribution. I can make a rifle in a machine shop in my basement; power cells and microprocessors need more elaborate facilities.
You might also have a point here. However, that simply increases the potential profit in gun-running, IMHO. If the Alliance is into victim disarmament that heavily, then a good directed energy weapon will be worth its weight in gold. An entire cargo hold full of them ought to buy a planet or two.
Quote:
They are harder to repair. Sure, they have no moving parts, but they do have more elaborate construction (e.g., microprocessors and lasers). If your CD player and 1960s turn-table both broke, which would be simpler to fix if you had to do it yourself?
I'll concede you that one outright. Good point.
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They're less efficient. Even if the technology to do it exists, it's still more power and complexity than a traditional firearm.
I'd argue that as we're on the threshold of directed energy weapons right now, in another 500 years, the complexity involved will be minimal.
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[bI don't know the state of energy weapon technology on Firefly, but I'm betting it isn't good enough to possessed by the crew of Serenity or those with whom they interact.
Again, it's 500 years in the future, building from a point -- right now -- when we're on the cusp of directed energy weapons. Indeed, if government will stop immorally regulating private firearms inventors out of existence, I'm certain that the next John Moses Browning out there will get me a directed-energy sidearm inside of ten years.
Dakota Smith
No human being has the right -- under any circumstances -- to initiate force against another human being, nor to advocate or delegate its initiation.
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Quote:Those are some good points. I wonder how Joss is going to explain this? In the B5 universe there was no FTL technology but everyone used "hyperspace" to get from A-B faster.
Originally posted by Ringwraith:Quote:
Originally posted by DakotaSmith:
I'm confused, then. These various Earthlike planets aren't all in the Sol system, are they? They are working on the outer boundaries of an interstellar Alliance, correct?
If so, then they better have FTL spacecraft, or there's going to be a lot of time between episodes. I mean, for them just to get to Alpha Centauri would take four years ... meaning the next episode of Firefly would be due sometime in 2006 or 2007.
According to the v.o., it is a single solar system that they've found with lots of planets, lots of satellites that are Earth-like or terraformed to be so. Also Serenity keeps to the frontier planets/moons, so it's range of distance is limited there as well. No FTL is necessary.
--- Joe
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Quote:
The parallels to the American Civil War and the war with the Alliance are striking (I assume they're intentional). The South didn't lose all their arms back to the flintlock after losing to the North. Why would this be true of the browncoats?
In the time of the Civil War, finding support for denying a man his arms would have been much harder. Also, Mal is one of the people who didn't want to be with the Alliance. That reduces his access to resources that would be available to people who a) support the Alliance and b) live closer to the Alliance's core worlds. It's not just a matter of the losers having their guns taken away. It's a matter of the losers not having access.
Quote:
Also, if this is the case, that the loser are being denied arms, there ought to be an enormous amount of money to be had by the Serenity's crew in just running guns to former browncoat worlds.
This assumes there is access to such items on a scale that would make the gun-running profitable.
In Prohibition, we outlawed something that could be made in a bath tub.
The war on drugs and restrictions on firearms do create a vacuum. However, there are forces that can fill that vacuum. Other nations may overlook or support the creation and transport of drugs and illegal weapons. But how many other powers are there besides the Alliance? Who is filling the void? It would have to be someone with the facilities to make these items.
This may be another reason that six-shooters are in vogue: They are easier to make and introduce into a very large market.
We also don't know yet what restrictions the Alliance places on manufacturing or trade. Unless there are more large powers (criminal, corporate or governmental) who operate in defiance of the Alliance, it would seem that there is only one power with the resources to create such weapons--and thus manage their distribution.
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I'd argue that as we're on the threshold of directed energy weapons right now, in another 500 years, the complexity involved will be minimal.
I disagree. Complexity is likely to increase over time. Just look at how much of a modern car is computer controlled, even compared to one made 20 years ago. GM is looking at a new car that is completely wire controlled (i.e., computers run everything).
Energy weapons, to work properly, would need to precisely control the energy. That would be done with computers--microchips or nanotech. Even when such manufacture becomes common-place, the facilities to do that manufacture would likely be controlled by the government with the resources to afford it.
I'll be interested, should the show take us into core Alliance territory, to see how advanced their technology is when compared to the outer worlds.
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Again, it's 500 years in the future, building from a point -- right now -- when we're on the cusp of directed energy weapons. Indeed, if government will stop immorally regulating private firearms inventors out of existence, I'm certain that the next John Moses Browning out there will get me a directed-energy sidearm inside of ten years.
Of course, the government is also likely to just hire the next John Moses Browning, and he'll make his gun for them. We may be on the verge of directed-energy weapons, but how likely is it that the public will ever use them? We've had shoulder-mounted anti-tank weapons for while, but I don't have one. (Yes, that was an extreme example.)
I could get one off the black market, but is it worth the cost and risk? The same question applies to Firefly. Is the market, availability, and effectiveness of these weapons great enough justify the risk in illegally making or transporting them?
I don't know. There's information we don't yet have about this world. Was there a Dark Age when the world took a step back in knowledge? Was there a world government that halted or slowed weapons production? Did resources become scarce? Were manufacturing facilities destroyed during the war? If this is like the Civil War, is there a massive Reconstruction un
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Quote:
Originally posted by teraph:
Again, I don't know. I'm playing Devil's Advocate on some of this. It is certainly something with which we can have some fun theorizing and studying the possibilities.
I don't know, either -- and don't mistake my levelling these criticisms as major criticisms. As long as there ends up being a plausible reason for these things, I'll be happy.
I'm already happy with the show's libertarian bent as regards politics. That there is a continuing character who actually owns her own body thrills me no end -- and if Whedon really wants to make me happy, he can do a scene where a couple of the characters are lighting up a joint in their off hours and no one makes a bigger deal of it than one would having a beer.
I'm utterly thrilled with what I think is the first realistic portrayal of frontier worlds.
I'm really happy that no one onscreen, from the local sheriff to the Alliance jack-booted thugs, has tried to disarm anyone just for carrying.
I'm really thrilled that for once, there's an SF show in production that doesn't leave me hurling epithets like, "Goddamned Statist propaganda!" at my TV for an hour straight.
I think the show has a ton of potential, and the fact that I'm spending a fair amount of time trying to find mpegs of the episode "Serenity" is proof of that.
Dakota Smith
No human being has the right -- under any circumstances -- to initiate force against another human being, nor to advocate or delegate its initiation.
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I'm surprised at you DekotaSmith!
You levelled such fine points and a very good argument and then you strangely decided you concede some.
Six shooters and pump action rifles in the 26th century is plain stupid! Yes, I know I’m a git for saying it, but I honestly believe that Joss Whedon made an idiotic oversight!
The only explanation I can think of for such stupidity is that there will be some fine (and lengthy) exposition that will explain things in the next few episodes.
To simply say that they use 'slug-chuckers' because they are low-tech naively assumes that there has been (in 500 years!) little advance in say the production of energy cells (batteries) or the production of alternative power sources - How many new power sources have we found in the last five hundred years?
NOBODY will think of firing a projectile weapon in 500 years. It's almost an impossible concept. The idea that someone would take the time and trouble to fabricate an intricate weapon (which in all probability could backfire and kill them) when they probably have cheap, rechargeable energy cells and a few disposable silicon chips, to put together a weapon which could demolish a house in the blink of an eye.
The question, which would you, find easier to repair, a phono record player or a CD is an incorrect analogy, you compare technology which is say 30 years difference, in Firefly, the difference is 500 years.
If a group of people are able to exist on a frontier, travel around on advanced trains and receive spaceships and visitors from other worlds, they will be able to afford the stunningly cheap resources such as a few silicon chips and a battery FAR more than the resources for smelting and fabricating 'slug chuckers'.
Can you imagine firing a six-shooter (or Zoe’s pump action rifle) on a spaceship! How stupid would that be! At least on Babylon 5 they had the idea of the PPG and much as I hate Star Trek, at least they made some effort to make conflict believable!
I personally believe that the use of projectile weapons (in case you hadn't guessed :) ) is a flawed one and that it's only our love for the venerable Mr Whedon that makes us want to defend his judgment.
I'm quite prepared to forgive the dude, if only for the silent Serenity in space. I think that takes nerve - the firearms stuff is just a cheap trick to spend less money!
The big question we should ask is? Will the Alliance have energy weapons? I really, really hope they do!
PS. DakotaSmith news.binaries.multimedia.scifi
has a poor copy of Serenity. I downloaded it this morning and it’s terrific! Much better than The Train Job.
SadGeezers Guide to Firefly
http://www.sadgeezer.com/firefly
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I don't really see how using firearms on a spaceship would be that risky. Certainly a vessel constructed for the rigors of space travel would have a thick enough hull to take a .45 without rupturing! The only exception might be the windows, but those appear to only be installed on the bridge and may very well be constructed of a high-tech transparent metal or something that's nearly as resistant to gunfire.
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