Firefly Episode Discussions

Subtle yet interesting show observations -- post yours

POSTED BY: AnimalM0ther
UPDATED: Friday, December 7, 2007 19:19
VIEWED: 121753
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ASARIAN

Friday, December 22, 2006 1:41 AM

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Originally posted by Bagheera:

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Originally posted by asarian:

Seems River played Badger. From minute one.

I didnt think that was subtle, so much as obvious.

Perhaps it may have been too subtle for you to pick up on though, but I certainly dont think she was eavesdropping beforehand.

Sigh. There's just an acre of you fellas, ain't there?

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

BAGHEERA

Friday, December 22, 2006 2:00 AM

Hum.

One 'subtle' bit about that speech was...

Has River EVER lied ?

In both the "old homestead" and the "I'm not on the ship, I'm in the ship" speeches, she speaks literally, but is misinterpreted by those characters listening.

ROMANCEGURU

Friday, December 22, 2006 6:17 AM

I don’t know why I never noticed this before but in “Trash” when Kaylee is explaining their plan on how to sneak out the lassiter (sp?) and Saffron say’s to Kalyee “Oh, except it's idiotic.” it immediately cuts to Jayne mug and his expression that shouts how dare you say that to little Kaylee. I love it because it shows how much Jayne is in solidarity with his peeps.

What we need's a diversion. I say Zoe gets nekkid.

KELAI

Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:05 PM

A thing I notice is that in the BDM when they are passing though Reaver space Jayne is cuddling Vera tightly as if its a comfort to him -- like a small child and a blanky.

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SKAYLA

Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:09 AM

In the episode 'serenity' when Mal is shooting that big gun at the alliance ship in the beggining.. it has this little orange thing on the screen for targeting the ship.. its pretty similar to the menu of the serenity dvd.

ASARIAN

Saturday, December 30, 2006 1:20 AM

In "Ariel", it is widely believed that River slices Jayne with a knife because she's somehow triggered by his Blue Sun T-shirt. But since Jayne is wearing the same Blue Sun T-shirt all throughout Bushwhacked, and River seems just fine with it, that notion has always bothered me.

... until, yesterday, it finally dawned on me what makes River's trigger accute. 'Bout four seconds earlier, River overhears Wash say:

WASH
So, two days in a hospital, huh?
(Inara nods)
That's awful. DON'T YOU JUST HATE DOCTORS?

That's it! There's a two-second comic interlude ("Don't be excluding people, that's just rude,") after which River comes at Jayne with a kitchen knife.

And, O my, was it even a comic interlude?? Or was River simply doing EXACTLY what Jayne said? Namely, while having an unpleasant flashback, "not excluding" him from being cut on?

Pieces are beginning to fall into place.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

ASARIAN

Monday, January 1, 2007 2:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bagheera:

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

Seems River played Badger. From minute one.

I didnt think that was subtle, so much as obvious.

Perhaps it may have been too subtle for you to pick up on though, but I certainly dont think she was eavesdropping beforehand. She simply displayed the uncanny intuition she always had (or as wash would put it the "scifi-ish psychic ability")

*soft smile* Now, that's why it's subtle. :) Cuz the "obvious" thing is to just assume River was being highly intuitive and masterfully adapting to the situation. But, as Inara would say, nothing here is what it seems. Or rather, Joss generally sets things up in such a way that things could easily NOT be what they seem. And he can be called downright skillful, to the Nth degree, as there's no obvious conclusion to gravitate towards. Could be Book was a former Operative; could be he was a former Alliance commander; but whatever he was, Joss always leaves us dangling. Similarly, could be River's just being intuitive; could be she was eavesdropping; could be she's a reader (there's a plethora of evidence for that, too);

In fact, when you watch Firefly over and over, you'll see a gradual build-up of hints pointing to River being a full reader. That build-up is subtle in and by itself, as all throughout Firefly Joss leaves just enough room open for other interpretations. She knows Jayne betrayed them at Ariel; and in Safe she can read Ruby's mind. And in Objects in Space Simon, very subtlely, seems to be less than entirely forthright when he says "She's deeply intuitive." (which the Captain, at that point no longer buys). And she knows eerily much about Early's youth, and the things he has done:

River: "Big golden retriever, sitting on the lawn. Never took to you. Smell on you, the neighbors pets, you did things to 'em... cleaned up after."

But with all these examples, one could still argue something else than reader. She could have guessed about Early's past; or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel (which the entire crew seemed to notice, btw). Etc. Culminating, finally, in "full disclosure" at the end of the BDM, where Mal literally spells it out that River's a full reader:

Mal: "... since you already know what I'm about to say."
River: "I do. But I like to hear you say it."

And even then, it's not entirely clear WHEN River unlocked her full reader potential. Maybe the Miranda stuff blocked it partially; or could be she just grew better and better at it over time. Or could be she could do it all along.

At any rate, I believe that if there's anything really obvious in Firefly, then it is that there's nothing really obvious.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

BAGHEERA

Monday, January 1, 2007 9:19 PM

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*soft smile* Now, that's why it's subtle. :) Cuz the "obvious" thing is to just assume River was being highly intuitive and masterfully adapting to the situation.

Indifference to the facts doesnt make something subtle or masterful... more like... unfinished and wishywashy.

You could also argue that River is actually a male operative posing as River, and that his imitation of the female gender is masterful subtlety on the part of the writers and actors... but thats a load of bunk too.

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Or rather, Joss generally sets things up in such a way that things could easily NOT be what they seem. And he can be called downright skillful, to the Nth degree, as there's no obvious conclusion to gravitate towards.

I understand that brownnosing the creators is a high-competition sport on any fanboard... but I believe you again misinterpret Indifference as Skill.

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Could be Book was a former Operative; could be he was a former Alliance commander; but whatever he was, Joss always leaves us dangling.

So, if the series hadnt been cancelled, and he'd been given time to write more pulp fiction, he would have been in effect less skillful ?

It takes more skill to do something right, then it does to not do it at all.

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Similarly, could be River's just being intuitive; could be she was eavesdropping; could be she's a reader (there's a plethora of evidence for that, too)

Evidence ? lol. Could be she's a reaver for all your logic there.

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In fact, when you watch Firefly over and over, you'll see a gradual build-up of hints pointing to River being a full reader.

I have. and I have also noticed that in Safe, she SPECIFICALLY and OPENLY states things that she could not have known any other way. Do you really think the headman in Safe spilled the beans on murder to River on a drunken bender or something ?

and that aint no "last episode in the series" that was the fourth to air... so your whole theory about subtle and slow introduction of the theory is bunk too.

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That build-up is subtle in and by itself, as all throughout Firefly Joss leaves just enough room open for other interpretations.

I got a friend that refuses to acknowledge any difference between colors or directions, blaming it on colorblindness and direction blindness... does this make north the same as south, or red the same as green ? No. They are still different, even if you are willfully blind.

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She knows Jayne betrayed them at Ariel; and in Safe she can read Ruby's mind.

Very odd, I thought you had just argued that she WASNT a reader... very subtle of you to be arguing both sides of something so that you can retreat to whichever you deign to be safest.

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And in Objects in Space Simon, very subtlely, seems to be less than entirely forthright when he says "She's deeply intuitive."

again... not subtle. Simon has already shown and told the crew that he will lie, cheat, steal, whatever to protect River.

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And she knows eerily much about Early's youth, and the things he has done:

River: "Big golden retriever, sitting on the lawn. Never took to you. Smell on you, the neighbors pets, you did things to 'em... cleaned up after."

But with all these examples, one could still argue something else than reader. She could have guessed about Early's past;

thats not really subtle... but when he says "You're in my ship" subtlety might lead you to relate his ship with Serenity, and relate all that Serenity is to her crew... as being what his ship is to Early... and all that she had been railing about being Serenity and such...

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or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel

umm... she says something to the effect of "He's afraid we'll know he turned us in at Ariel"... so how the hell is that subtle ?

Subtlety lays more in the realm of "Did River deliberately instigate and encourage Jayne to turn on Simon and River, so that he would be able to move past his insecuri

ASARIAN

Tuesday, January 2, 2007 1:57 AM

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Originally posted by Bagheera:

Quote:

*soft smile* Now, that's why it's subtle. :) Cuz the "obvious" thing is to just assume River was being highly intuitive and masterfully adapting to the situation.

Indifference to the facts doesnt make something subtle or masterful... more like... unfinished and wishywashy.

You could also argue that River is actually a male operative posing as River, and that his imitation of the female gender is masterful subtlety on the part of the writers and actors... but thats a load of bunk too.

Gotta say, Bagheera, your talent for alienating folks is near miraculous.

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Or rather, Joss generally sets things up in such a way that things could easily NOT be what they seem. And he can be called downright skillful, to the Nth degree, as there's no obvious conclusion to gravitate towards.

I understand that brownnosing the creators is a high-competition sport on any fanboard... but I believe you again misinterpret Indifference as Skill.

Why, I sure hope he'd display enough indifference towards your imputed indifference. :)

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Could be Book was a former Operative; could be he was a former Alliance commander; but whatever he was, Joss always leaves us dangling.

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Similarly, could be River's just being intuitive; could be she was eavesdropping; could be she's a reader (there's a plethora of evidence for that, too)

Evidence? lol. Could be she's a reaver for all your logic there.

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In fact, when you watch Firefly over and over, you'll see a gradual build-up of hints pointing to River being a full reader.

I have.

Only one installment ago you didn't even know who Harken was. So, you might wanna look to replenishing your knowledge of The Material.

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... and I have also noticed that in Safe, she SPECIFICALLY and OPENLY states things that she could not have known any other way. Do you really think the headman in Safe spilled the beans on murder to River on a drunken bender or something?

Dude. You just said: "Evidence? lol.". And now you're bashing me cuz there's too much evidence? LOL. Please, kindly decide which position you take; then argue for or against. But don't change your position mid-post, or you'll wind up trashing yourself -- which is all manner of fun to watch, but it tends to muck things up.

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and that aint no "last episode in the series" that was the fourth to air... so your whole theory about subtle and slow introduction of the theory is bunk too.

But wait; this whole tirade of yours starting with you blasting me cuz I was allegedly too daft to see the "obvious", namely that River was just being intuitive when playing Badger. I guess the "obvious" has a way of not being so obvious after all, don't it?

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She knows Jayne betrayed them at Ariel; and in Safe she can read Ruby's mind.

Very odd, I thought you had just argued that she WASNT a reader...

Which part of "could be she's a reader (there's a plethora of evidence for that, too)" was confusing for you?

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or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel

umm... she says something to the effect of "He's afraid we'll know he turned us in at Ariel"... so how the hell is that subtle?

As you might say: "She simply displayed the uncanny intuition she always had." Oops. :)

I'll give you "obvious". But YOU then please make up your mind between "obviously she's just uncannily intutitive" and "obviously she's a reader". You can't have your cookie and beat it.

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Subtlety lays more in the realm of "Did River deliberately instigate and encourage Jayne to turn on Simon and River, so that he would be able to move past his insecurities and become one with the crew?"

No, that's just you grasping for straws you long since ran out of.

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Or could be she could do it all along.

considering that the entire premise behind the

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KEVINGREY

Wednesday, January 3, 2007 7:03 AM

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River mouths the words, "The people here stopped fighting" along with the Alliance doctor, kinda hinting that this was the big secret she knew - because you can obviously not read the mind of a hologram, so she couldn't know what she was about to say like when she mouthed words alongside Mal earlier in the movie.

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But with all these examples, one could still argue something else than reader. She could have guessed about Early's past; or just have picked up on Jayne's hightened sense of nervousness after Ariel (which the entire crew seemed to notice, btw). Etc. Culminating, finally, in "full disclosure" at the end of the BDM, where Mal literally spells it out that River's a full reader:

Mal: "... since you already know what I'm about to say."
River: "I do. But I like to hear you say it."

And even then, it's not entirely clear WHEN River unlocked her full reader potential. Maybe the Miranda stuff blocked it partially; or could be she just grew better and better at it over time. Or could be she could do it all along.

One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention thus far, is prescience. Psychometry, telepathy and others have been mentioned, but in OoG, I believe she mentions “fire” twice, each time, Simon thinking she’s talking about the candles on his cake, before the explosion occurs.

In this, there were no minds to read, no objects to read. It really could only have been a “foretelling”. Also with finding the back route out of the hospital in Ariel. Though, arguably, she could have plucked it from a random mind, her control over telepathy seems quite limited when there are more than one or two minds about to be dealt with.

Limited prescience, to my mind is of much more use to an “Assassin”, than strict telepathy since such could be quite muddled in the midst of many minds, especially in the case of the battle with the Reavers. However, having a limited prescience would allow one to foresee actions and react ahead of schedule, as-it-were. Always allowing one to be a “step ahead” when clear and focused.

This isn’t to say that she isn’t also a telepath and/or psychometrist. However, I don’t really see any chance for either of these to have given her foresight of the “fire” in OoG.

Having recently re-read the Dune series, this calls all sorts of possibilities to mind as well. First of all, in the case of the Government/Corporate interest, there would be much more interest in someone with prescience, then there would be in someone with simple telepathy.

In addition, the potential for storyline is immense and I could envision a future where River, having gained some control of her mind and abilities, suddenly becomes certain of a given future potential and comes up against Mal’s innate freedom and choice sense; one who would assuredly balk at the idea of a given destiny.
For myself, in the “subtlety” angle, I think to when River woke up in the hospital on Ariel with the “Copper for a kiss,” remark and the sudden confusion on her face as she assessed Jayne. Quite quick the play of emotions, to me and it seemed that in one moment, she reacted to his reaction, then in the next, sensed something else going on with Jayne and realized what it was.

I likewise think that the “sudden brain activity” that was missed by Simon, and her subsequent scream was in prescient response to the Blue Hands’ imminent arrival.

Just my take on it all of course.