Angel -- "The Jasmine Arc: Atheism for Dummies"

POSTED BY: Novagrass
UPDATED: Friday, February 20, 2004 21:39
VIEWED: 20625
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HRHTHEDUDE

Monday, February 16, 2004 4:44 PM

Wow, that was a compelling argument. Kinda sad really. I was hoping for a discussion, gainsaying is just boring. Thanks for making me wait all this time for nothing.

Catcher in the Rye is the stupidest thing I've ever read.

ARAWAEN

Monday, February 16, 2004 10:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaTwang:
As I was reading this interesting thread, I realized that, when it was posted that Joss was "an angry athiest"- something about that line kept twinging in my mind's side as not sounding right... is there really such a thing as an "angry athiest"?

I cannot say whether or not Joss is an angry atheist, but I was. I hated God with a passion. My understanding is that I am not alone, I believe C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton and Thomas Merton were all angry atheists prior to their 'conversion'.

Quote:
The pivotal word here is the concept of innate "athiestic anger" - who would they be mad at?

When you don't believe in god, the emotional attitude toward the subject (of whether there is a god) is more along the lines of ..."uh, whatever...."

If there are angry athiests, then surely their anger must be directed at the persistent and relentless prattle of those tireless, prodding believers, (you know who you are... wink wink, nudge nudge) and is not a component of their athiestic belief per se.

That is the question. It would makes sense to be mad at the 'fools' who believe, the institution, etc. but angry atheists, like myself have a grudge against God.

Quote:
As to Joss "challenging God" when things go bad, that's probably just a cursing habit he picked up from his Dad (or Mom).

Joss did refer to God as 'The Big Sky Bully' in a commentary (for 'The Body' I think).

Quote:
It's much more satisfying to vent your anger at the "big guy in charge"...somebody such as GOD - hence, personifying him/her, than yelling at the outcome of a series of random events.

"You damned tree! Why'd ya let the wind knock all of your damned leaves off your branches so they could be pulled to earth by the force of gravity thus necessitating me to have spend my Saturday raking the damned yard!!!"

Maybe one of the sources of belief in God is mankind's tendency to 'imagine' or 'perceive' a cosmic force intentionally thwarting our desires. A number of cultures have beliefs that center around the disbelief in accidents. Everything happens for a reason, and not the pop psychology variant. Bad things happen because of evil spirits, witches (evil ones I assume

)

Quote:
It's just not as satisfying. It doesn't evoke the sense of reckless defiance one gets when one takes the name of a so-called God in vain. The act of cursing is like daring those alleged powers-that-be to strike you down. It's a far more bully thing to do than to say under your breath, "O drats."

Though one must admit that it does fly in the face of the argument that belief in God is illogical. If you are going to deny a belief or action on the ground of logic, one would hope that your alternative is to believe and act logically. Though I actually agree with you one this, it is more satisfying to shake your fist at the 'heavens' though I believe it is because we are subconsciously egotistical enough to believe that the PTBs prevented us from accomplishing or getting whatever it was that we are angry about. Hell, I have blamed God for traffic lights changing (and for not changing), how silly is that? I must have a real chip on my shoulder to think that with 6 billion people on the planet, God wants to prevent me from getting to work on time.

Quote:
Athiestic anger would surely have to be be towards man, not towards the chaos inherent in life, which actually is kinda pretty.

In my view, there's gotta be something running all these fractals, but that's another thread.

This kind of discussion has always been up my alley, I even took a year of graduate theology before getting to depressed to continue. But overall, I would say that their are at least two kinds of atheists. Those that genuinely believe that their is no God and those that have something against God and religion (or a particular religion).

I was an angry atheist once. While that changed, I no longer believe in mankind, so I guess I am always doubting something.

Arawaen

DRAKON

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 1:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
by Webster's definitions your characterizations vs. faith are bang on. however, i'm of a mind to believe atheists don't generally have the faith to lose in the first place. anyone who says they're an atheist because they don't believe in the Almighty anymore still has the faith. it's just broken or lost. i mean can you really be against something that doesn't exist?

I don't see this the same way, maybe I am missing something.

Due to the non-corporeal nature of the deity, (or actually most models of divinity) making objective statements on its existence or lack thereof is impossible.

Since you can't touch it, see it, or ask it questions in open public forums, but only inside your own skull, you cannot objectively (i.e. independent of any specific observer) prove God exists. But you cannot prove that God does not exist.

The best atheistic arguments all rely on model dependent thinking. If and only if their particular model is the only one possible, does it exclude God.

This leaves the acceptance as well as the rejection of God as a belief. Both are faith based assumptions that one picks.

Atheism enjoys a bit of popularity, because of the mechanistic and successful nature of science, and the laws of nature revealed via this method of epistemology. Mankind did not set foot on the moon based on faith, but by hard work, study, experimentation, risking and sometimes losing, lives. God did not help.

Some folks elevate science up as a religion, where the two cannot be more distant. Science offers theories, ideas that may be true, but reality, objective reality, is the final arbiter of truth. Not our faith, our hopes or our ideas.

Religion is more authoritarian based, even the free spirited wiccan communities have their favorite writers. (In an eariler era they would have been made prophets and saints.) But the basic idea behind almost any and all religions is "This is the way it is, I said so"

Sometimes this can be a good thing. Being hung up on the decision loop can even get deadly, if you are not careful. Having an answer, even a wrong one, allows you to test out that answer, to move along, see if it is right. Having no answer, well, one gets stuck.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

DRAKON

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 2:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Arawaen:
Maybe one of the sources of belief in God is mankind's tendency to 'imagine' or 'perceive' a cosmic force intentionally thwarting our desires. A number of cultures have beliefs that center around the disbelief in accidents. Everything happens for a reason, and not the pop psychology variant. Bad things happen because of evil spirits, witches (evil ones I assume )

I think this is close. Before the discovery of the various laws of mechanics, when something happened, when things changed, mankind assumed that a similar cause was responsible for it. The field did not plow itself, someone had to do it.

Thus, snow does not fall by itself, or trees grow by themselves. The idea that change was produced or chosen by an intelligence seems to make perfect sense.

Quote:
I must have a real chip on my shoulder to think that with 6 billion people on the planet, God wants to prevent me from getting to work on time.

It is sometimes more satsifying to think that one is important or special to a very powerful entity, than to think that one is nothing but an mote. Egoism may be one's only defense against the great abyss of meaningless struggle in an uncaring, insensate universe.

For some reason I am reminded of the immortal words of Ambassador Londo Molari, "In troubled times such as these, you can never have too many gods."

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

METR0MAN

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:51 PM

I felt that the Jasmine arc was more (or possibly ALSO) about Peace vs. Freedom. It was remarkably relevant to our times. There's a conflict and struggle going on in the wake of terrorism on US soil, what's truly more important? how many freedoms are worth sacrificing to make sure we stay safe from the terrorist attacks? in Jasmine's world, there was true and total harmony, it was Peace. But there was absolutely no freedom at all.

"A man of honor... in a den of thieves!"

DRAKON

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by metr0man:
I felt that the Jasmine arc was more (or possibly ALSO) about Peace vs. Freedom. It was remarkably relevant to our times. There's a conflict and struggle going on in the wake of terrorism on US soil, what's truly more important? how many freedoms are worth sacrificing to make sure we stay safe from the terrorist attacks? in Jasmine's world, there was true and total harmony, it was Peace. But there was absolutely no freedom at all.

"A man of honor... in a den of thieves!"

Well there was the slight problem in that Jasmine was eating people. But other than that, yeah.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

BLACKEYEDGIRL

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 6:33 PM

'Those who give up freedom for safety deserve neither.' That's a great quote by like Jefferson or something. I think that sums up the Jasmine arc if it is about peace v. freedom.

Atheism. Ah my old friend. I'm a devout atheist and anyone who says that an atheist had no faith to lose is dead off. I wanted to believe, I wanted a mechanism that would give my life meaning and purpose. I wanted the ability to think that when things happen to me, it's out of my control, that someone else guided and scripted the whole thing. But life doesn't work that way. Sh*t happens.

It's a frightening day when you realize, I'm not special. That's what religion is really about, it makes your life meaningful, it gives you a route to continue existing, if only in the vaguest terms. Being an atheist means coming to terms with the fact that, you as an individual, and your life, and everything you do in the grand scheme of things is nothing. You are just an ant in the hill, and when you die you will be replaced. Self reliance and existentialism hit it on the mark, I am in control of this life and anything that happens in it is a direct result of an action, or lack there of, of myself.

Now, as an Atheist I get a lot of crap thrown my way. But I also have my reasons. I studied the faiths, Christianity, Judaism, Isam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc... and at first I thought maybe my issue wasn't with a divine being, but that I had issues with the tight constraints of any one religion, that when it becomes an institution even the purest of intents can become perversed and distant from their original meanings and intentions. Basically the authenticity and truth of any one religion gets clouded by the politics of man. But then I considered, if this is true, wouldn't this divine being somehow show us the error of our ways to allow us to return to a simpler worship, or at least that it would makes it's presence known so as to truely offer the hope that it claims to offer. I mean would a deity allow the bastardization of itself? I think not. In Oz's words though, that may be a radical interpretation of the text.

So then I thought why do people worship? Why do people rely on a deity? What does it bring to their lives? The answer was simple: purpose. Hope breeds purpose, if one believes that things can get better one trys to make them better. This gives guidance and purpose, things get better because people try to make them better, and tada! look everyone it's god's work!

When there is no god to rely on, there is only yourself. Most religions seem to base themselves that when good things happen, God was helping you, but when bad things happen you have somehow spurned god, or have been mislead by evil, and now god is teaching you a lesson. It's the big finger in the sky poo-pooing you for your mistakes. It's like me and my friends say: How come when someone wins an award they thank god, but the losers never blame god? When you are left with yourself, when you screw up, it's completely your fault, when something good happens, it's also your fault. If you fall from a 10 story building and live, it's not because god didn't want you to die, it was chance. The universe is a big giant random probability machine, and once in a while the unprobable becomes probable for you.

Now I have decided for myself that there is no divine being watching over us. The only place I give that there may have been a 'touch' of god is as a first mover. Something putting this whole wacky Earth experiment in motion, something causing a big bang that made the universe become. Technically this makes god an atom. One single atom that's unprobable became probable and blew the roof off the whole damn thing. An atom, the same atom being a piece of every single piece of matter in the universe. All came from one, as nothing can truely ever be destroyed, it just changes form. Technically everything being made of the stuff of this 'god.' But still I do not worship, as this god just is, with no intentions, benificience, nemesis, this is a hands off and MIA god that in a sense destroye

ARAWAEN

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 8:42 PM

Quote:
Atheism... I wanted the ability to think that when things happen to me, it's out of my control, that someone else guided and scripted the whole thing. But life doesn't work that way. Sh*t happens.

You don't need to believe in God to believe that everything is out of your control, guided and scripted by forces that dwarf us. Strict materialism denies any divine intelligence but also denies free will, everything is just mechanical.

Belief in a divine being doesn't imply that 'someone is guiding or scripting the whole thing'. Many traditions accept that 'God' (for lack of a better word) gave his creation freedom, the shit happens because of our choices, our collective choices. The reason certain choices are considered so bad is that they don't simply hurt the individual making them, but spread out infecting the whole community as it were.

Quote:
It's a frightening day when you realize, I'm not special. That's what religion is really about, it makes your life meaningful, it gives you a route to continue existing, if only in the vaguest terms. Being an atheist means coming to terms with the fact that, you as an individual, and your life, and everything you do in the grand scheme of things is nothing. You are just an ant in the hill, and when you die you will be replaced. Self reliance and existentialism hit it on the mark, I am in control of this life and anything that happens in it is a direct result of an action, or lack there of, of myself.

It can also be a frightening day when you realize that you are special, not in the sense that you are priviledged (and TOO MANY people practice religion for the reason you mentioned). I have found that most religions are a burden when truely practiced body, mind and soul (though it is a small percentage of any religion's members that does so).

Atheism is such a broad category, just like Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc. The people who fall under its definition can be so wildly different as to be actually closer to their opposition that to their fellows. I am not even talking about denominations, which are finer grained definitions. Some Christian philosophies believe in free will, some believe in predestination. Christian existentialists and atheist existentialists probably have more in common with each other than with a rationalist from either side of the divine existence camp.

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

STEVE580

Thursday, February 19, 2004 3:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HRHTheDude:
Wow, that was a compelling argument. Kinda sad really.

Who's arguing? I was just making a comment.
-Steve

IDEFIX

Thursday, February 19, 2004 5:02 PM

I read some of the answers to the "Is There A God?" question on the site linked obove.

and I really found one that sums up my own thoughts about it.

it's the statement of one Andy Richter, whom I don't know anything about.

Quote:

"Andy Richter: I don't think so. I don't know. I don't think about it much, because I figure, what's the point? I don't know if it's agnosticism. There are things that are beyond our comprehension, so why bother? That's sort of my spiritual feelings. I feel like there might be some design. You can't think, like, "Well, how did everything get here?" I don't know. That's how it is. "I don't know, next, now what's for lunch?" When you pray, I don't think anyone's listening. Besides other people, I don't think anyone cares if you murder people or masturbate or shove things up your butt. I don't think there's anybody sitting in the sky watching you. You're on your own. All you have is other people around you, and how you treat them. I actually think that not having a focus on God would make life better, because there would be more of an imperative to be nice to each other. There would be no more brand-name wars over stuff, and pointless arguments over east side/west side, go-fight-win. But I don't know. People have got to worry about something, and there's obviously some kind of anthropological, almost zoological need. This particular animal does this particular thing. Instead of constructing a hive out of paper that they chew up, they create a God. It's just something that they do."

and I never had this urge to chew up a god of any kind.

I was (shortly) attending christian classes in first grade (protestant and catholic, I tried both that are available here in germany) and I came home and told my mother if it was ok that I don't go there anymore because they tell me some bullshit and I really don't have the patience for sitting through this. maybe I never believed in any god because of the way it's usually told to children. maybe if they talked about a noncorporeal higher power somewhere guiding my life I would have at least thought about it maybe being true. but they insisted on talking about this man up in the sky and I just rolled my eyes at them.

and now I really don't want to be guided by any higher power so I hope that there's no god. to me it feels really weird that so many people believe in god. for me it's just not logical to come up with the concept. I know that I can't ever know if there is one (or many) or not so I just don't think too much about it and try to think about things I can know and I can change. same with the big questions: "Why am I here?" "What will happen to me, when I die?" I can't ever know so why bother to think about it? it's not really relevant for my life if I will be reborn or just gone or in some kind of afterlife. I can't prepare for something I know nothing about and my life won't be any better if I come up with a 'believe' just for the sake of it. I just wait and see.

and morality has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. I can learn what's right and wrong without ever having attended one single lesson of any religion. we do have special school classes for the atheist or believers in religions other than the popular ones. they are called "ethics" class and I really loved those. we started out with questions like "What would you do..." and "Why would you do that?" and "Do you think that's right?" and ended it with a look at different philosophers and religions. really inspired us to think and not just do what we were told because you simply weren't told but asked. and I appreciated that when I was a child and I still appreciate it.

I think the world would be a better place if there were no religions and people were taught to think for themselves and act according to that and be responsible for what they do.

might be a strain on some people but maybe not and we all would be surprised of what humanity could achieve if they all were encouraged to think and not obey.

and now you've all figured out that I'm anti-authoritaria

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