Mandatory Vaccinations (Part 2)
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 21:57
VIEWED: 12509
PAGE 9 of 16
Oh good, you decided to be a hypocrite. Hows it up there on your high horse with the rest of the idiot hypocrites?
Quote all you like, you say one thing and express another, so the fact you have quotes of you saying you want to deal with your own consequences while obviously not wanting too is hardly surprising.
Saying I'm digging a hole doesn't make it true, just like everything else you say.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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I am perfectly willing to foot the bills for my own decisions, I am NOT, however, willing to foot the bills for decisions forced upon me by others.
I am perfectly willing to foot the bills for my own decisions, I am NOT, however, willing to foot the bills for decisions forced upon me by others.
I am perfectly willing to foot the bills for my own decisions, I am NOT, however, willing to foot the bills for decisions forced upon me by others.
I am perfectly willing to foot the bills for my own decisions, I am NOT, however, willing to foot the bills for decisions forced upon me by others.
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What part of this statement are you not getting ?
Is it written in invisible ink ?
Or is it coming across in a language you do not read ?
You repeatedly, and continually in this entire discussion go on about how I wish to have the decision without the consquences, and I have continually stated in no uncertain terms that this is not the case - and that forcing the decision on me, and the consequences of a decision I did NOT make, or was not legally allowed to me, is idiotic.
And you then continue on saying I wished to have the decision and avoid.. yadda freakin yadda.
I stated my position repeatedly, you distorted it, repeatedly, and continue to do so.
You demanded I dig up evidence, much of which has had to be posted twice to you as you ignored it or didn't get around to looking at it.
Either you're as crazy as PN is, or at this point you're just being malicious.
So which is it ?
-Frem
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Quote:And then you bitch how every consequence is unfair.
You repeatedly, and continually in this entire discussion go on about how I wish to have the decision without the consquences, and I have continually stated in no uncertain terms that this is not the case - and that forcing the decision on me, and the consequences of a decision I did NOT make, or was not legally allowed to me, is idiotic.
Quote:None of that had been posted before, so this is a blatent lie. You're not even trying. The only thing you had to post twice was stuff I had already looked at but you assumed I couldn't have looked at it because I didn't come to the same conclusion as you. Says more about you than me.
You demanded I dig up evidence, much of which has had to be posted twice to you as you ignored it or didn't get around to looking at it.
Quote:I continually restate my position and you continually distort it. I said as much and then you 'counter-accuse' me of the same thing.
I stated my position repeatedly, you distorted it, repeatedly, and continue to do so.
...
Either you're as crazy as PN is, or at this point you're just being malicious.
Either you're as crazy as PN or you're just being malicious.
Which is it?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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One of us is nuts.
And you know, I don't think it's me.
I'll be filing you with Zero and Asshat in the future Chit... sorry, I tried to reason with ya, but it just ain't possible.
-Frem
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CTS,
I thought I'd start addressing some of your less than honest arguments.
This is the first - you are merely pro-choice.
Perhaps you recognize these words: "This argument rests on the assumptions that the vaccine in question is both effective (confers immunity) and safe (doesn't confer anything else). Those people who refuse vaccines generally do so because they have serious doubts about both assumptions--doubts so serious they are willing to risk contracting the disease."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=25494
Summary: getting vaccines is more dangerous than disease.
Conclusion: anti-vaccine argument
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Quote:It takes two to argue, but you all over, "it's nothing to do with me, it's all their fault, I'm completely innocent!" It's that prevailing attitude of yours which goes part way to showing why, for all you go on, you want someone else to suffer the consequences for your actions. After all it was really their fault wasn't it.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
One of us is nuts.
And you know, I don't think it's me.
I'll be filing you with Zero and Asshat in the future Chit... sorry, I tried to reason with ya, but it just ain't possible.
For an anarchist you sure hate taking responcibillity for your own actions. Three year olds can't do that either.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:There is a difference between being PERSONALLY "anti-vaccine" and being POLITICALLY anti-vaccine. Obviously people who do not vaccinate are "anti-vaccine" personally--they do not want vaccines for themselves. This is not the same as being politically anti-vaccine, as campaigning for everyone else to not vaccinate.
Originally posted by rue:
Summary: getting vaccines is more dangerous than disease.
Conclusion: anti-vaccine argument
I am obviously "anti-vaccine" personally, and I am here arguing for the right and the freedom to be personally "anti-vaccine." But I am politically PROCHOICE--people should have the right to choose whether they are for or against vaccines on a personal level. My arguments have NOT been to persuade anyone here not to vaccinate, but to allow people to choose to be against vaccines for themselves, or not.
To use the abortion analogy, I am anti-abortion personally (would never have one), but I am prochoice politically (would vote for others' right to choose). I describe my position on abortion as prochoice, because prochoice obviously includes the right to be both for and against abortion.
All right, this IS my last post to you. I am truly tired, so very tired, of all the personal insults and attacks coming from you and Citizen. I have no interest in that kind of mean-spirited debate.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Quote:In most other industrialized countries, such as Germany, England, and Japan, there exists no mandatory vaccination policy to attend school. They have never had a problem with the small fraction becoming a large fraction. They've had ups and downs, but nothing that required them to resort to compulsory vaccination laws. And they are just fine.
Originally posted by SignyM:
But what happens if you make vaccination optional and that small fraction becomes a LARGE fraction? Do you re-institute mandatory vaccination if that faction becomes more than X%?
It comes down to this. If vaccines are truly as effective and safe as manufacturers and retailers claim, then most people will use it voluntarily. You don't need to FORCE the majority of folks to use a good product. This has been demonstrated the world over, where most industrialized countries do not have mandatory vaccination laws and continue to have high coverage.
People will only stop using a product if they start to question its effectiveness and safety. And if they have those questions, they should be allowed to ask them, according to the medical ethos of informed consent.
If the PUBLIC debate ever shifts from whether to force a minority to use a product to the merits of the product itself, you have a different sort of problem. If a "large fraction" decides to challenge a product, you have to deal with the political force of the large fraction. Mandatory vaccinations is only an issue when the majority wants to force a minority to conform. If it ever gets to a point where the majority, or even a large fraction, no longer believes in a product to voluntarily use it, they will not support a mandatory vaccination law to force the product on themselves.
Imagine if 40% or 50% of the American public no longer believes in vaccines enough to use them. The mandatory vaccination laws will become repealed anyway, so that won't be the issue. If 40-50% of Americans have already decided they don't want vaccines, then vaccines will not be assumed to be the most effective or safe way to handle these disease. It would be a different climate entirely. Without those assumptions, blaming the unvaccinated as a public health threat will not be a problem. The issue will be to deal with diseases as they occur, if any, and which alternative intervention Americans prefer to deal with their prevention and sequelae.
Quote:And we both know that that the corollary assumption, that they are therefore currently immune, is seriously flawed. The fact is, it is widely known that vaccine-induced immunity doesn't last a lifetime, and these teachers who were vaccinated as preschoolers are most likely not currently immune. It supports the contention that authorities are not as genuinely interested in public health as in universal consumption of vaccines, as often as they can get away with, in the most accessible segments of our society: babies and preschoolers.
altho I expect the assumption is that most teachers have either been vaccinated or have already had the usual diseases
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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CTS- Unfortunately, I don't think that populations always come to the most rational decisions. Beta is better than VHS, Linux is better and cheaper than Microsoft, and Blue-Ray is better than HD. Hundreds of millions of people smoke. The Easter Islanders drove themselves to cannibalism through rapcious and totally obvious environmental destruction.
The USA is particularly prone to propaganda. Advertizers know that USAers have the greatest "brand loyalty" and are more easily swayed by commercials. The unvaccinated population is a risk for others, especially in the USA which has the worst health care of all industrialized nations, where people actually die of preventable diseaes.
Quote:
Sweden suspended vaccination against whooping cough from 1979 to 1996 while testing a new vaccine. In a study of the moratorium period that was published in 1993, Swedish physicians found that 60 percent of the country's children got whooping cough before they were ten. However, close medical monitoring kept the death rate from whooping cough at about one per year during that period.
Boulder, which has the lowest school-wide vaccination rate in Colorado, has one of the highest per capita rates of whooping cough in the United States. .... "At first we called it an outbreak; then we started calling it a sustained outbreak; now we just say it's endemic," Ann Marie Bailey, the county nurse epidemiologist when I visited Boulder last year, told me... From its reservoir in the under-vaccinated population of Boulder pertussis has branched out: neighboring Jefferson and Denver Counties had more cases in 2000 than Boulder did. Some of the people who live near Boulder are angry. "There is a constant presence of whooping cough here, and it's because of Boulder Valley;" says Kathy Keffeler, the chief school nurse for Longmont, a growing city just north of Boulder... In 2000 it killed seventeen people in the United States, including two Colorado babies, both of whom were taken to the hospital too late... Tina Albertson, a pediatric resident who cared for one of the infants, told me "She was a six-week-old girl with a sister and a brother, four and six. The family had chosen not to immunize, and the week she was born, her siblings both had whooping cough. When they're real little, the babies don't whoop--they just stop breathing. This little girl was septic by the time they got her here."
Like most in Boulder, Ann Marie Bailey, the nurse epidemiologist... cedes nonvaccinating parents the right to decide what's best for their children. But she gently points out that they're fooling themselves if they think no one else is affected by their decisions. "We've been able to show very definitely that whooping cough spreads from these pockets in small communities.
http://www.immunize.org/genr.d/issue341.htm
Also
Quote:
The authors measured the impact of children with personal exemptions on community risk. "After adjusting for confounders, the frequency of exemptors in a county was associated with the incidence rate of measles [1.6 times greater risk] and pertussis [1.9 times greater risk] in vaccinated children," they write. Also, "schools with pertussis outbreaks had more exemptors (mean 4.3 percent of students) than schools without outbreaks (1.5 percent of students)," they continue. "At least 11 percent of vaccinated children in measles outbreaks acquired infection through contact with an exemptor."
www.hbns.org/newsrelease/measles12-26-00.cfm
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:I'm sick and tired with you always twisting the debate around to "either you agree with me or you're insulting me". No retraction I see. No quote either.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I am truly tired, so very tired, of all the personal insults and attacks coming from you and Citizen. I have no interest in that kind of mean-spirited debate.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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