Blondie Bear Vs. Captain Forehead
POSTED BY: deepgirl187
UPDATED: Saturday, December 9, 2006 01:29
VIEWED: 6794
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I agree that the writing in which Spike is regaining his soul is specifically done in a way to mislead the viewer. To make you believe he's having the chip removed, even though he never says it. What he says, specifically, is that he "wants to be what he once was." I saw Angel before Buffy, so when I got to this point in the series I already knew Spike got a soul, so I noticed this style of writing but wasn't thrown by it.
I have to agree that if either of the two re-souled vampires is to become human based on the Shanshu Prophecy, it must be Spike. Angel signed away his right to do so in the last epsiode. Argue all you want about loopholes, but really, would that make any sense within the story? I believe the reason Joss has expressed interest in making a Spike movie the last few years revolves around the Shanshu plot. And even though that would be a huge disappointment for Angel, it makes sense in the context of the story, and certainly a plot point that is brought up in Angel S5. Angel was cursed with a soul, whereas Spike voluntarily earned his, so it makes sense that Spike would be the one to receive the reward.
It's up for debate as far as exactly which of the two is more worthy (I'd probably go with Angel personally), but the narrative certainly points to Spike, albeit without directly stating it.
I guess all this discussion is kind of premature, in that we don't really know whether Blondie Bear or Captain Forehead (best name-calling ever!) even survived the final battle...
"If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak." - Jayne
"Looks like wishes are horses today." - Spike
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Quote:Having JUST watched the end of 6 and the beginning of 7 these last 2 weeks, I have to agree with ya totally, Em.
Originally posted by embers:
oh well, if people persist in not understanding what was clearly bait and switch then there is no point in arguing with them....
Nov. 28, the slim set of Angel season 5!!!
Too much Spike is not enough Chrisisall
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And the thing is, if Spike got to be human... he'd HATE it! He'd have to cut down on the booze, cigs, and greasy food. All of his very favorite things are "bad" and he revels in it. If the Shanshu went to anyone, it'd be the writerly thing to do to give it to someone who'd hate it.
But I don't think Angel actually wants to be human either. He was human for a day and it went rather badly. He just wants the Shanshu because it means he'd be forgiven. The problem is that he's Angel, therefore he has a lot of guilt. I don't think that would ever go away, even if the Powers That Be themselves descended upon L.A. and said "Hey Angel! You're cool, stop worrying about it!". He'd still brood.
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Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
If the Shanshu went to anyone, it'd be the writerly thing to do to give it to someone who'd hate it.
that's rather good
I was gonna say that I didn't believe either would shanshu because it would be too much of a happy ending with the blue fairy and everything, but I could see it being a new torture device, lol...seems to me angel doesn't so much want to be human as to be redeemed. when he became human he knew that wasn't his redemption, similarly with the gem of amarra, when he was working towards the shanshu though I think he would have been just as happy if he didn't get to live a human but just got to die with a clean slate and not go to hell, so I do think he wanted it, he scoffed about not believeing in it but you could see how much he really wanted it to be true.
on spike I've said this before, but possibly on another board so I'll give my theory again. I think he was surprised by the soul, sort of. I think on the surface he was so angry (at himself and at her) and thought he wanted to get the chip out to kill her, to 'become what he was' but underneath (subconsciously maybe) all he really wanted was to be be good enough for her, i.e. human in his troubled brain. which is what the demon saw and gave him, maybe deliberately pervesely. so rather than it being re-written, I saw it as that he didn't understand his motives properly at the time, which we often don't in love
so while it was a mislead on the part of the writers I don't think it was dishonest or disrupted the continuity.
and I wouldn't like to say which is better or more noble, but I think spike's case is more interesting, the way he bounced back so quickly. he clearly experiences things much more intensely as he actually went completely crazy and was trying to cut it out and everything. angel, because he never went down that low took longer to work through it, which is sad, in some ways because he coped better it was harder for him
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Quote:As usual Charlie, I am actually touched by the love you have for the characters.
Originally posted by charliethebloody:
...
I think spike's case is more interesting, the way he bounced back so quickly. he clearly experiences things much more intensely as he actually went completely crazy and was trying to cut it out and everything. angel, because he never went down that low took longer to work through it, which is sad, in some ways because he coped better it was harder for him
I am guessing that you are a writer yourself, or a philosophy/psychology major- or just a really cool and insightful person.
Impressed Chrisisall
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aw, you make me blush 
< see
I did do philosophy and psychology at a-level (high school) but I don't think I learnt that much from them, it was more about what to regurgitate for the essays, (which is probably why I didn't do too well). I think you were right the first time, I just love the characters 
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"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."
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David Fury believes that while they're both good men, Spike is slightly more noble than Angel because Spike CHOSE to get a soul while Angel had his forced on him in order to feel remorse for his sins, and that's also why Angel hates Spike so much, because he believes it's true. However, I personally don't see that it necessarily makes Spike more noble. He chose to get a soul not because he wanted one, but to impress a woman. He also chose NOT to allow himself to actually feel much remorse for the things that he did until he met the psycho slayer in season 5 of ANGEL. Angel's soul was forced on him, but he CHOSE to feel that remorse.
Basically, they're equal as far as I'm concerned.
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Sorry!
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Quote:Apples and oranges, luv.
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
Basically, they're equal as far as I'm concerned.
Seeing your point Chrisisall
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Jane Espenson confirmed a few years ago that Spike's intention all along was to get a soul, not to get the chip removed. The angry way Spike was acting up until that point really was an intentional mislead on the writers part.
I don't think he was actually taken by surprise. We were meant to think that, but actually I think it's supposed to be painful for the soul to be restored. Maybe that was the shocker.
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