End Christmas as a Holiday?
POSTED BY: NewOldBrownCoat
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 2, 2025 23:28
VIEWED: 9880
PAGE 4 of 6
Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyQuest:
Most of the Christiness was taken out of Christmas long ago with the--dare I say it?--advent of the Saint Nicolas legend, which itself has morphed into a grotesque parody of itself. I'm sitting in the car this morning and again this evening listening to a radio station that has played nothing but Christmas music since before Thanksgiving, and heard one actual Christmas Carol. Hark, the Herald Angels Sing sung by Nat "King" Cole.
You can't on the one hand bemoan it's commercialization and turn around say it's still "Christian".
JQ,
I'll use your statement because it pretty much sums up what both you and Finn are saying.
I'm not contesting that the application of the holiday hasn't been bastardized. It's been bent, and twisted, and mangled. In spite of all of the non-related traditions that have now been attributed to Christmas, it doesn't change the holiday. There are four December holiday observances, right? (Christmas, Channukah, Ramadan, and Kwnazaa). Why is Christmas special? I don't know.
I do know that when little kids ask their parents what Christmas is for, and what all the presents are about, they get the Jesus story, even in most non-religious families. That story even probably gets to be a little embellished when the kid starts asking uncomfortable questions like where does Santa come in, and what about the North Pole.
Maybe I live in a fantasy world, but I've never been able to really find any other instance in any of the cities that I've lived in or visited during the holidays. And I don't think it should be that way. I don't think non-Christian families should be put into that situation. I would be *perfectly* happy not having Christmas as a federal holiday (which is more reasonable than having time-off style observance of all of the major groups' holidays), and perhaps having a neutral, generic "Holiday" observance that can have all of the commercialism and trappings that we associate with it now. There's no reason to single Christmas out above all of the other holidays.
Amiton.
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Quote:Well, it is actually quite simple. Most people in the US do not celebrate Chanukah, Ramadan or Kwanza. Most people do celebrate Christmas. So if a company were to give everyone in their employ paid leave on December 26 so that the 1.6% of their company could celebrate Kwanza, what do they do on December 25 when 90% of their employs take off to celebrate Christmas? Doesn’t it make more sense to make Christmas the Paid holiday instead of Kwanza? That’s also the reason why the federal government does it.
Originally posted by Amiton:
I'm not contesting that the application of the holiday hasn't been bastardized. It's been bent, and twisted, and mangled. In spite of all of the non-related traditions that have now been attributed to Christmas, it doesn't change the holiday. There are four December holiday observances, right? (Christmas, Channukah, Ramadan, and Kwnazaa). Why is Christmas special? I don't know.
Quote:If parents want to tell their children the “Jesus story” in response to their children’s inquiry about Christmas that sounds like the prerogative of the parents, doesn’t it? They aren’t required to tell their children the Jesus story, and there is certainly plenty of tradition and folklore surrounding Christmas that has nothing to do with Jesus.
Originally posted by Amiton:
I do know that when little kids ask their parents what Christmas is for, and what all the presents are about, they get the Jesus story, even in most non-religious families. That story even probably gets to be a little embellished when the kid starts asking uncomfortable questions like where does Santa come in, and what about the North Pole.
Quote:There is a good reason to single it out if you practice it. Why should someone who wants to practice Christmas practice something else or god-forbid some grotesque “neutral, generic” holiday to satisfy some problem you have with some hypothetical “non-Christian families” choosing to tell their children the “Jesus story” (as if that is some horrible offense). And suppose that the federal government does abolish Christmas as a federal holiday, what do you suppose is going to happen then? Do you think the country will just stop practicing Christmas? No. Almost everyone in the country will still take Christmas off; they will still put up Christmas trees and exchange gifts; the stores will still be closed, and the whole country will still shut down for Christmas. So what have you accomplished? Well, you’ve probably pissed off a lot of people, not the least of which will be the government employees who enjoy getting their federal holidays, but other then that, all the Who’s down in Whoville will still practice Christmas, including presumably those hypothetical non-Christian Whos.
Originally posted by Amiton:
Maybe I live in a fantasy world, but I've never been able to really find any other instance in any of the cities that I've lived in or visited during the holidays. And I don't think it should be that way. I don't think non-Christian families should be put into that situation. I would be *perfectly* happy not having Christmas as a federal holiday (which is more reasonable than having time-off style observance of all of the major groups' holidays), and perhaps having a neutral, generic "Holiday" observance that can have all of the commercialism and trappings that we associate with it now. There's no reason to single Christmas out above all of the other holidays.
Here is an example of some of the stories and lore that parents can and do tell their children about on Christmas:
Quote:
Every Who down in Who-ville, the tall and the small,
Was singing! Without any presents at all!
He HADN'T stopped Christmas from coming!
IT CAME!
Somehow or other, it came just the same!
And the Grinch, with his grinch-feet ice-cold in the snow,
Stood puzzling and puzzling: "How could it be so?
It came without ribbons! It came without tags!
"It came without packages, boxes or bags!"
And he puzzled three hours, `till his puzzlerNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I think we'll have to agree to kind of disagree, Finn. It (kind of) seems like we're making the same arguments, only on different sides of the debate - i.e. you're saying it's this way and it works for these reasons, while I'm saying it's broken, or at least a misapplication, for those same reasons.
Machiavelli v. Michelangelo, Sartre v. St. Francis, it breaks down to a matter of perspective, I guess. Then again, I guess most debates do, don't they?
Amiton.
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I'll have to agree that not many people know that christmas is really a pagan holiday. I'm actually suprised that so many people in this thread know about it.
Growing up, I didn't have christmas just because of the pagan roots. My father decided that as Christians, we couldn't celebrate any of it because all the rituals were pagan and the holiday (in his eyes) had no redeeming qualities that would make it christian. I had to explain why I didn't celebrate christmas for years, mostly in school, and nobody knew anything about what I was talking about. Some of the teachers even thought I was making it up just to get out of doing what we were supposed to do in class. I was the only one that didn't participate in the activities, even though there were many non-Christians there as well.
Obviously, due to my upbringing, we know where I stand on the christian/pagan side of the debate.
That said, I think christmas is too culturally entrenched to be eradicated. The majority of people are so used to celebrating the holiday that it wouldn't do very much. Also, what would the economy do without black Friday? It's a tradition that will take a great deal of pushing to get displaced.
I'm a leaf on the wind
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If we wanted to replaced x-mas with something non-denominational we could replace it with the solstice. But that doesn't carry the same frenetic buy and spend message. It would have to be made more business-friendly to be accepted.
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Quote:In one way or another, probably. But you’re probably right that we aren’t likely to find a mutually agreeable resolution on this matter. It’s just baffling to me that anyone would have such a problem with Christmas, of all things. In the end, you’re argument basically boils to the idea that people who practice Christmas should be apologetic for it because there are more of them. But why? It doesn’t make sense to me.
Originally posted by Amiton:
I think we'll have to agree to kind of disagree, Finn. It (kind of) seems like we're making the same arguments, only on different sides of the debate - i.e. you're saying it's this way and it works for these reasons, while I'm saying it's broken, or at least a misapplication, for those same reasons.
Machiavelli v. Michelangelo, Sartre v. St. Francis, it breaks down to a matter of perspective, I guess. Then again, I guess most debates do, don't they?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Christmas trees gone from Seattle-Tacoma Airport
Dec. 10, 2006 — There is a damper on Christmas cheer at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport: A rabbi's complaint led to the removal this weekend of synthetic Christmas trees that have decorated the entrances every holiday season for the last 25 years.
The man behind their disappearance, Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, told a Seattle newspaper he's "appalled" that the airport officials removed the trees. His goal was not to clear out Christmas, but rather to add a celebration of Hanukah. He asked the port of Seattle, which runs the airport, to build an eight-foot menorah and hold a lighting ceremony.
"Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday," he told the Seattle Times. "For many people, the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2715008&page=1
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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In the paraphrase I so gleefully steal from Citizen at every possible opportunity: "Baby, Bathwater, meet 'OUT'."
"Well, here I am...Does that seem right to you?"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It’s just baffling to me that anyone would have such a problem with Christmas, of all things. In the end, you’re argument basically boils to the idea that people who practice Christmas should be apologetic for it because there are more of them. But why? It doesn’t make sense to me.
Nah, I guess I'm misrepresenting myself, Finn. I don't have a problem with Christmas at all. It's fun and it's a reason for people to be nice to each other. Although I do wish it didn't cost me so much money every year =p
There are issues here and there, such as, like I said, I don't think it's fair to have such particular attention paid to one religion's holiday without giving fair representation to others. But the fact of the matter is that it's part of our culture, and it's deeply intimate with the US economy, and very possibly all of the western national economies. It is what it is =)
Amiton.
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As anyone who reads my posts on a regular basis already knows, I'm a born-again Heathen, a Druid-in-training, and the world's only Pagan Agnostic (I don't just doubt the existence of God, I doubt the existence of all the Gods in alphabetical order, beginning with Allah and ending with Zeus!)
I'm always adamant about the separation of church and state, first to argue with anyone about our supposed "Christian forefathers", and find the forced implantation of "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance absolutely hilarious. (Did you know that the author of that piece was both a Socialist
and an Atheist? Amazing the things you learn trying to look up something else...)
All right, with that background, you probably already know how I'm going to stand on this issue.
Wrong. I like Christmas, right where it is. Mid-winter is a good place to put a holiday, which is why so many societies have done so. Heck, I'm sure that's the whole reason the early Christians put it there to begin with--it certainly didn't have anything to due with Jesus' actual birthday, which could have happened any time of year except winter. (Shepherds don't abide in their fields at that time of year, even in the middle east.)
That this midwinter festival happens to coincide with a majority religion I don't personally subscribe to bothers me not a whit.
So what if 12/25 doesn't precisely match up with the Winter Solstice? I'll still wish folk a happy Yuletide, as they go to fill their stockings or light the menorah. No skin off my nose. It's what attorneys call a De Minimus situation; the minor damage to church-N-state isn't worth the divisive emotions stirred up by efforts to correct it. Don't sweat the small stuff.
Okay, now for a personal anecdote; one December day, as I was entering the local Safeway on my lunch hour, I passed a Salvation Army bell-ringer who was being harangued by a little-old-lady type, dead set on educating him about the pagan origins of the Christmas holiday.
"It's nothing but a Heathen sun festival! We're teaching children to worship Santa Claus ahead of Jesus! Don't you realize that you're perpetuating devil worship!" And so on.
I exited ten minutes later, lunch in hand, to find that Mrs. Grundy was still lecturing the poor fellow, who was demonstrating the patience of Job.
I girded my loins, pulled my Thor's hammer out from under my shirt, walked up behind her, and bellowed "YOU'RE RIGHT!" at the top of my lungs. "You're absolutely right! The Christians stole Yuletide from the Vikings, they stole Easter from the Babylonians -- hell, half the Patron Saints in Europe used to be Pagan Gods and Goddesses! Don't you people have any imagination at all? Why don't you go home and think of some holidays for yourself, instead of ripping off the Pagans?"
She looked as if I'd slapped her in the face with a fresh trout, eyes as big as pie plates. She stumbled off, looking back over her shoulder from time to time.
The bell ringer let out a very long sigh, smiled gratefully, and said "Bless you, sir."
I shrugged, and said "Blessed be yourself--and Merry Christmas." 
"Joyeux Noël, Y'all!" -- Zonker Harris
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