Gravity Control!

POSTED BY: Calhoun
UPDATED: Sunday, February 15, 2004 12:14
VIEWED: 10201
PAGE 4 of 5

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT PAGE

CALHOUN

Saturday, February 14, 2004 1:14 PM

Drakon,

1) I was just tryin to impress the point that there is a lot of stars out there, I concede the number in our galaxy does not appear to be as great as I had thought 100mill to 400mill is what I now discover after searching. Conservative estimates of ten times more stars in the universe than grains of sand on our planet still makes this point valid.

2) I'm not really that convinced that we as a species can say unequivocably that life could or couldnt have formed here or there. Though I have seen similar research.

3) You'll probably laugh at me for this one but understand its VERY speculative. I believe that an alien race interfered with human development at some stage in our past. Have you ever read a book called "Chariots of the Gods"? If not, I recommend it as a very ineresting read. There is a lot of evidence in it to support the theory.

Ok Ok.. Stop laughing at me and read the damn book!

As far as mathematics backing me up in my opinion of the potential for a species to attain control of gravity... 70 million million million stars is a lot of stars and thats a conservative estimate and just for this universe. Some scientists believe the number of stars "out there" to be infinite. In a number that large I just believe its very probable.

Whoaa.. heavy thread :)

~Keep Flying~

SHORTGEEK

Saturday, February 14, 2004 2:55 PM

One has to be careful here--I think I am detecting a common logical flaw. An infinite number of possibilities does not imply that all things are possible. [Apologies, but this is a pet peeve of mine with my students.]

For example, consider all possible numbers that lie between (and including) zero and one on a number line. Any mathematician can tell you that there are infinitely many such numbers. In fact, there are UNCOUNTABLY many such numbers (uncountable infinity is the largest "type" of infinity we can define). Ok, so there are uncountably many such numbers. How many are bigger than 5? None. How many are as large as one--only one. Even if there are an infinite (though probably only countably infinite) number of planet, stars, whatever, that doesn't mean that there is even one civilization with FTL capability. It'd be nice though.

Cheers all.

DRAKON

Saturday, February 14, 2004 3:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Drakon,

1) I was just tryin to impress the point that there is a lot of stars out there, I concede the number in our galaxy does not appear to be as great as I had thought 100mill to 400mill is what I now discover after searching. Conservative estimates of ten times more stars in the universe than grains of sand on our planet still makes this point valid.

Oh understand completely. I would limit the scope to this galaxy, or at the very least(???) the observable universe, simply because right now we don't know whats on the other side of observable.

Quote:

2) I'm not really that convinced that we as a species can say unequivocably that life could or couldnt have formed here or there. Though I have seen similar research.

Okay, I am a bit of a geek (really??

) I did a research project a while back on this very subject. There is a way of getting a better guess than simply pulling numbers out of the air. But it is still a guess.

You break it down to smaller questions, like what is the probability that life started elsewhere, how likely are the conditions of life, that sort of thing. Drake's equation (which Cricton hates). That gives you a better guess, and its still not quite certain.

Quote:
3) You'll probably laugh at me for this one but understand its VERY speculative. I believe that an alien race interfered with human development at some stage in our past. Have you ever read a book called "Chariots of the Gods"? If not, I recommend it as a very ineresting read. There is a lot of evidence in it to support the theory.

Ok Ok.. Stop laughing at me and read the damn book!

Have I read it? LOL. I got all five of his books. This is kinda where I am coming from. I went through all this stuff years ago, and got into all the UFO research and Von Daniken stuff. It boils down to one person's interpretation of the data, and such data is not sufficient to rule out any competiting theories.

Before Von Daniken, Carl Sagan wrote a paper about just this question, trying to identify markers in mythology that might indicate an extra-terrestrial origin. One of the Babylonian gods fits into this "syndrom" Sagan had figured out. But again, that does not prove anything, it does not conclusively rule out other explainations.

After a while, I found the signal to noise ratio overwhelming. Poor argumentative logic, a failure to rule out other, more mundane possibilities. So I will buy this whole extra-terrestrial visitors stuff when one lands and picks me up. Not before then.

Quote:
As far as mathematics backing me up in my opinion of the potential for a species to attain control of gravity... 70 million million million stars is a lot of stars and thats a conservative estimate and just for this universe. Some scientists believe the number of stars "out there" to be infinite. In a number that large I just believe its very probable.

Ouch. I don't think infinity is a real thing. I don't believe in infinite numbers of stars. It may be a very very very very big number, but that still ain't infinite.

Also, remember you are not just talking about some gravity controlling alien species out there, you are talking about ones that actually made it to this hardly remarkable planet, on the unfashionable side of this galaxy. With humans onboard. See how the problem gets a bit stickier?

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

SHORTGEEK

Saturday, February 14, 2004 3:33 PM

Infinity. Dear me. Another of my pet peeves. I agree with the statement that there are not an infinite number of stars. Any number, no matter how large, is still finite. As for infinity being a real thing, well, infinity is not a number. The rules of arithmetic do not apply to it, so points off from calculus students for adding, subtracting, dividing and multiplying with that funny little symbol that looks like a sleepy eight. Nonetheless, is a perfectly reasonable (real) concept. It as reasonable a concept as, say, the concept of justice.

Sorry if this is pedantic!

Cheers, all!

JASONZZZ

Saturday, February 14, 2004 8:30 PM

Well... infinity as we people define it anyways. There is infinity out there, our minds aren't structured to grasp it.

Quote:
Originally posted by shortgeek:
Infinity. Dear me. Another of my pet peeves. I agree with the statement that there are not an infinite number of stars. Any number, no matter how large, is still finite. As for infinity being a real thing, well, infinity is not a number. The rules of arithmetic do not apply to it, so points off from calculus students for adding, subtracting, dividing and multiplying with that funny little symbol that looks like a sleepy eight. Nonetheless, is a perfectly reasonable (real) concept. It as reasonable a concept as, say, the concept of justice.

Sorry if this is pedantic!

Cheers, all!

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

CALHOUN

Saturday, February 14, 2004 9:08 PM

If the universe or multiverse doesnt go on forever (infinitely) then what do you suppose is beyond when it ends? Some say there is just black at the end of the universe, but how far does the black go and if it aint infinite then what is beyond it?

SHORTGEEK

Saturday, February 14, 2004 9:54 PM

Urf. I think I was misunderstood. Infinity is a real (i.e definable) concept. It is well understood mathematically by defining it to be that which is unbounded. (So it is defined by what it is not.) My point is that infinity is not a number like 5 or a zillion. The sleepy eight is just shorthand for the concept of unboundedness. The symbol looks like a number, but unboundedness is not a numerical concept like 5 and a zillion. Arithmetic with a non-numerical object is not defined in the mathematical sense. Ok. Tiresome, I know.

Point is this: If you want to, you can believe there are an infinite number of planets. It still does not logically follow that having an infinite number of possibilities implies that every conceivable possibility is realized. So even if there are an infinite number of planets, that doesn't mean that one of them has produced a faster-than-light technology.

Cheers all!

CALHOUN

Saturday, February 14, 2004 10:49 PM

When talking infinity or just large numbers such as 70 sextillion all I am saying is that it "logically follows" that it is very PROBABLE that some species out there would have mastered gravity thereby having FTL drive. I never implied that every conceivable possiblity is realized.

Its an opinion and it mine!

SHORTGEEK

Saturday, February 14, 2004 11:12 PM

Oif. My apologies. I don't mean to offend. I should watch the tone of my prose. I am much better with numbers.

Just sayin': Beware the logical flaw. The numbers between zero and one comprise an infinite set. What is the probability that one of them is greater than five? The probability is zero.

I return to the dark corners to lurk.

RUXTON

Saturday, February 14, 2004 11:17 PM

Those who know nothing of anti-gravity search for Fran DeAquino. He has it. He used to work in Brazil but is now in the employ of the U.S. Also check the work of Col. Thomas Bearden, who has a PATENT on the use of the zero-point free energy. That means he has a WORKING MODEL which illustrated the principle. As soon as anti-grav is a reality, which it is -- though in what scale is questionable -- and superluminal velocity is a reality, which it is, you have viable space travel.

Wake up, people, you're being lied to, and not by me. USE the Internet. LEARN SOMETHING!

A couple of you posters are ignoramuses. Take a night-vision device outdoors on a clear night, away from city lights, turn it on LOW power, and look at the stars. I guarantee all doubts about extraterrestrial life will go away instantly.

.......Ruxton

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT PAGE