'Tolerance' on American Universities???
POSTED BY: cartoon
UPDATED: Thursday, November 30, 2006 23:02
VIEWED: 13388
PAGE 9 of 10
cartoon, I hope you'll stick around long enough to answer a few simple questions.
Do you believe that Christianity should be the official religion of the United States of America?
Do you believe that the government (federal on down to local) should help convert people to a particular religion?
In other words, Separation of Church and State: Yes or No?
On, and just for my own personal interest, do you consider yourself a member of a particular Christian denomination? I've been playing around with this theory that many Americans are working to weaken the separation of church and state in an effort to make Christianity the official religion of the United States. But it would never stop there. You'd have Protestants angling to kick out the Catholics, and everyone else banding together to get rid of the Mormons, until it got down to the strongest denomination. In my opinion, that denomination would be the Southern Baptist Convention. At which point we would have an American inquisition. So, by my way of thinking, if you're not a Southern Baptist (or another large denomination that has a shot at taking ultimate power), then you're working for the elimination of your own denomination.
* edit to change a few words
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I actually have to agree with Cartoon on that last point. I agree that there is a growing Bias against evangelical Christians.
But I belive the Bias is earned. For years Evangelicals have been expecting everyone to do as they do, and hold their religion above all others.
A timely example of this would be the outcry against newly elected Muslim Rep. Kieth Ellison, whom evangelicals are angry with for refusing to take his oath on a Bible, and instead on a Koran. They say he should not be allowed to serve if he will not swear on the Bible - despite the fact that useing a Bible, or any book, is not required by the Constitution.
The anti-christian vibe these days, as I see it, is a direct response to that mentality.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Storymark,
I agree about the, "direct response," part. And this has been said numerous times by others in this thread.
There is a movement to weaken, if not entirely eliminate, the separation of church and state in the US. Cartoon, from what I have read of his/her posts, subscribes to that view point. I personally think the greatest protection for members of organized religion in this country is a strong separation between church and state. So I will fight any and all attempts to weaken that protection.
If someone sees it as their God directed goal to tear down the wall between church and state, and they are impeded from furthering that agenda, and then they cry out that they are being biased against is that really bias?
What you have to realize is that any attempt to slow down this movement to eliminate the separation of church and state will be seen as bias. It is hugely important for this movement to be perceived as victims. "How come you won't let the public schools teach our children what we believe?" instead of "How come you won't let the public schools teach your children what we believe?"
It's all about a power grab. Leaders like James Dobson see the federal government as a great aid to help them in converting tens of millions to their beliefs. They neglect hundreds of years of history showing what happens when church and state are united. The founding fathers were a lot closer to the Thirty Years War then we are. Maybe we should pay more attention to why they were so strongly supportive of a separation of church and state.
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I agree 100% Soupcatcher.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
posted by SoupCatchercartoon
Do you believe that Christianity should be the official religion of the United States of America?
it depends on what you mean by that. would i prefer that America represented Jesus christ honorably to the rest of the world, then yes. i dont see anything harmfull in Jesus' message, its actually a revelation.. and i think its more of a mindset and less a traditional institutionalized "religion" per se. marrying the physical world with Jesus' meesage only creates problems and prohibits free will, which was never Jesus' intentions
the key is that this world, as Jesus himself says, is ruled by Lucifer; he is the God of this age. Jesus says many times "as it is, you do not belong to this world*", that "in this world* you will have trouble", but most of all "my kingdom is not of this world*." America is arguably the world superpower, so some compromises had to be made(and thats why i believe America may be Babylon the Great of Rev.) it doesnt matter what i want, the bible says that this age culminates in the global government of antichrist(which is why the sybolism is critical). the all seeing eye, the washington obelisk, the numerous pyramids and occultic iconographic geometrical shapes are directly linked to Egypt- who had a distinct pantheon of gods which to us were Lucifer and his fallen angels... or more appropriately 'pagan' and occultic
Quote:
Do you believe that the government (federal on down to local) should help convert people to a particular religion?
those are some really loaded questions...but you mean like the Federal government does with evolution? this religion teaches that man is his own god, that he made himself alive by choice billions of years ago when he was a lifeless rock. the really overt gnostic relations becomes apparent when you fastforward to the concept of mans eventual progressive evolution into a perfect godlike entity no longer recognizably human. people can believe that if they want, its expected in this age.. but acknowledge that its a religion and stop mandating it federally.
youre afraid of christianity.. you need to worry about the government and what its already pushing, which is.. evolution. you need to recognize that the people who make the money run the world, and they have for millennia associated themselves with the Egpytian, luciferian mysteries of the ancient world.. that Masonry and gnostic-evolution have since idealogically propogated. christians should know that until Jesus comes, the earth is ruled by Lucifer.. so any christian protecting the interests of this world* is then working for the antichrist- and conversely anyone working to bury and oppose Jesus' message are doing so aswell.
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I wanted to add a little bit more on this topic.
There has been some discussion online (Andrew Sullivan, Ann Althouse, Glenn Greenwald et al.) about the use of the term Christianist. I agree with the overall goal that we need to differentiate between those who follow Christ (Christians) and those who want to use the power of the state to force others to become Christians (Christianists).
Christianists are a very vocal minority of Christians. An even smaller minority would be Christianists who use violence (abortion clinic bombers, etc.). What Christianists have been very effective in doing is to equate any opposition to Christianism as opposition to Christianity. Which is definitely not the case.
So when someone claims anti-Christian bias I think it is very important to actually determine if it is instead anti-Christianism. The vast majority of Christians, in my opinion, oppose Christianism. And it is very important that prominent Christian leaders stand up and say, "You will not try to tear down the separation of church and state in our name."
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Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:Quote:
posted by SoupCatchercartoon
Do you believe that Christianity should be the official religion of the United States of America?
it depends on what you mean by that. would i prefer that America represented Jesus christ honorably to the rest of the world, then yes. i dont see anything harmfull in Jesus' message, its actually a revelation.. and i think its more of a mindset and less a traditional institutionalized "religion" per se. marrying the physical world with Jesus' meesage only creates problems and prohibits free will, which was never Jesus' intentions
the key is that this world, as Jesus himself says, is ruled by Lucifer; he is the God of this age. Jesus says many times "as it is, you do not belong to this world*", that "in this world* you will have trouble", but most of all "my kingdom is not of this world*." America is arguably the world superpower, so some compromises had to be made(and thats why i believe America may be Babylon the Great of Rev.) it doesnt matter what i want, the bible says that this age culminates in the global government of antichrist(which is why the sybolism is critical). the all seeing eye, the washington obelisk, the numerous pyramids and occultic iconographic geometrical shapes are directly linked to Egypt- who had a distinct pantheon of gods which to us were Lucifer and his fallen angels... or more appropriately 'pagan' and occulticQuote:
Do you believe that the government (federal on down to local) should help convert people to a particular religion?
those are some really loaded questions...but you mean like the Federal government does with evolution? this religion teaches that man is his own god, that he made himself alive by choice billions of years ago when he was a lifeless rock. the really overt gnostic relations becomes apparent when you fastforward to the concept of mans eventual progressive evolution into a perfect godlike entity no longer recognizably human. people can believe that if they want, its expected in this age.. but acknowledge that its a religion and stop mandating it federally.
youre afraid of christianity.. you need to worry about the government and what its already pushing, which is.. evolution. you need to recognize that the people who make the money run the world, and they have for millennia associated themselves with the Egpytian, luciferian mysteries of the ancient world.. that Masonry and gnostic-evolution have since idealogically propogated. christians should know that until Jesus comes, the earth is ruled by Lucifer.. so any christian protecting the interests of this world* is then working for the antichrist- and conversely anyone working to bury and oppose Jesus' message are doing so aswell.
Reading your stuff tips me more towards atheism every time I read it.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
There is a movement to weaken, if not entirely eliminate, the separation of church and state in the US. Cartoon, from what I have read of his/her posts, subscribes to that view point. I personally think the greatest protection for members of organized religion in this country is a strong separation between church and state. So I will fight any and all attempts to weaken that protection.
I hope you are wrong on this issue. I don't see any viable concerted effort to eliminate church and state separations. There are obviously some who would like to see that, but I don't think they have any real ability to impact actual change to do so. If they did, believe me, there would be many conservatives such as myself right by your side opposing such measures.
Do you have examples of such efforts coming to successful fruition in recent years?
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Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
cartoon, I hope you'll stick around long enough to answer a few simple questions.
Sure. BTW, I just have one question to ask you, if I may. If you ever shaved, would you have to change your name? Okay. Nevermind.
Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Do you believe that Christianity should be the official religion of the United States of America?
Absolutely not. I don't believe there should be any "official" religion anywhere. I can't speak for what other people believe, but the Bible is clear that belief in God cannot be mandated, it must be willingly embraced, or else one is just going through the motions. As it can't be forced, obviously I do not believe in forcing anyone into it. Duh.
I do believe in being able to present one's beliefs and leave it there. If someone is interested and asks questions, answer them. If they don't, leave it alone. (There is Biblical precedence for this view. Jesus told His followers to declare the gospel, but if it were rejected, to brush the dust from their feet and move on. Unfortunately, some people who follow the Lord seem to think they can force people to believe as they do. They can't. I don't. I won't.
I will, however, defend the manuscript authenticity of the scriptures as well as what the scriptures say, and do not very well tolerate those who attempt to twist them or create facts about their origins which are simply untrue.
Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Do you believe that the government (federal on down to local) should help convert people to a particular religion?
Absolutely not -- for the same reason I gave to your previous question.
Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
In other words, Separation of Church and State: Yes or No?
Absolutely, yes.
I believe that in recent decades that the U.S. Constitution has been severely twisted in this regard, however. I do believe in strict enforcement of the First Amendment, which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
A child reading from the Bible in a classroom, however, is not Congress establishing a religion. A teacher reading from the Bible in a classroom, likewise is is not Congress establishing a religion. Prohibiting a child or a teacher from reading the Bible in a classroom is, however, "prohibiting the free exercise thereof".
Somehow, our courts have either failed basic competency tests, or they have chosen to ignore what's written and wing it as they go along.
Yes, the government should not sanction a religion -- any religion. Yes, the government should not prohibit the free exercise, thereof.
I can't recall anytime in my lifetime where the government (specifically "Congress" -- as the Constitution clearly states) attempted to establish a religion. However, I have frequently seen the government (via the courts) attempt to prohibit the free exercise, thereof.
Let me ask you a question, sir. (BTW, I'm a male, too. My bio clearly states as much.) Do you think that the posting of the "Ten Commandments" in front of a court house qualifies as Congress making a law respecting an establishment of religion? If so, why? Thank you.
Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
On, and just for my own personal interest, do you consider yourself a member of a particular Christian denomination?
No. I believe the Bible is the final authority, not any particular denomination, pastor, priest, or assembly.
To add some background to all this, my father was a Catholic (non-practicing). My mother was a Baptist. I was baptised Catholic, raised Baptist (until 9), then Presbyterian (until 14), then United Methodist (until 18), then Primitive Methodist (until 24) -- received the Lord as my Savior (around the age of 25), and have attended independent, non-demoninational worship ev
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Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
Do you have examples of such efforts coming to successful fruition in recent years?
Hi Razza,
Just off the top of my head, "Veterans' Memorials, Boy Scouts, Public Seals, and Other Public Expressions of Religion Protection Act of 2006" which passed the House in September (and is hanging around in the Senate). It's an attempt to make Establishment Clause lawsuits much more difficult. It's pretty much the same thing as PERA 2005, which is talked about in this article: http://writ.lp.findlaw.com/hamilton/20060629.html
Quote:
excerpted from above link:
...
The big picture here is very informative if one wants to understand what is really happening. As I discussed in my last column, there has been an intense drive by religious entities, especially recently, to obtain financial benefits from the government..
The Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA), for instance, gives religious landowners a new right to sue local government, attorneys' fees to do it, and a legal tool that permits them to use less expensive land for more intense uses. In short, it directly enriches religious entities. The flipside of this strategy is represented by PERA - which takes damages and attorneys' fees (and thus, effectively, the right to sue) away from those who would enforce the Establishment Clause prohibition on religious entities co-opting the government to deliver their message. So much for level playing fields.
Surely, it is clear that this is an era of religion's power grab, and as with all power ploys, it always pays to look for the money trail. The Clinton Administration set the stage for the transfer of wealth to religious entities, and the Bush Administration has finished the construction of a new Age of Establishment.
...
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