"The Static Drinking Game" - or - "Why Should I Support the Military?"

POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Friday, March 19, 2004 20:30
VIEWED: 24289
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CIARA

Friday, February 13, 2004 12:51 PM

I completely understand, Maniac, AND Succatash. But it still remains that the troops over there should have our support, whether we support the war effort or NOT. Static deserves our support, friendship and counsel. He's away from his family in an awful place where awful things happen. I, for one, find nothing-NOTHING wrong with him taking a little solace from using the Firefly lines during battle. It gives a feeling of oneness, of home, familiarity. Who are we to deny him that? THAT is the context I see the situation in.

Just a humble supplicant in service to all things Joss

GEEZER

Friday, February 13, 2004 12:57 PM

If their use of Firefly quotes contributes one little bit to bringing Static and his comrades home safe, I'm for it.

I know that the little catchphrases my unit in Vietnam shared brought us closer. They allowed us to express our mutual concern without getting all gushy about it. During rocket attacks or infiltration alerts, thinking about "us" instead of "me" kept us all safer.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

DRAKON

Friday, February 13, 2004 1:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Ideally, I consider the military to be evil, a necessary evil. It's a cruel world out there, and let me reiterate, I'm glad we have a military. Because the world is cruel. By "Evil" I mean, purposefully training a group of people to kill. Too bad we need a military, but we obviously need one, it's a reality.

I see where you are coming from. I disagree very strongly with your position, and think I see the bug. I should probably mention that I am a vet, rode submarines for the US Navy, and slept with nuclear weapons.

You see, if you have to come up with the concept of "necessary evil", I see this a bug in the moral philosophy you are utilizing to figure out what to do about this issue. Necessary is not one of the defining characterists of evil, in fact if it is necessary, then it cannot be evil. It may be unpleasant, or it may make you uncomfortable, like medicine, but that hardly makes it evil.

You are saying that killing is always bad, and in one sense you have a point. For the guy dying, it ain't a picnic. But there are times when killing is the only way to prevent MORE death and destruction, more waste of necessary lives and equipment.

I see this as a "low resolution" view of morality. You've seen those pictures that are all pixelated, and its difficult to see more than a vague outline of the object being photographed? Its kind of like that. As a first cut, or low res ideal, its a pretty good one. But it is not the whole story, or a complete picture.

Some folks want you dead, and they don't even know you. They don't care to know you. They know you are not one of them, and would just as soon waste your life, as look at you. Its hard to get folks like that to change their mind, and if they are willing to act, you have to be willing to stop them. And be willing to use any means necessary to do that.

If that means killing them, then that is what it means. The alternative is to let them kill you. You want to live, as do most folks, which is why MAD worked during the Cold war. Nobody wanted to start a nuclear armageddon, as that would be bad for everyone. So none got started. (although a few times it was pretty dicey)

But for some, as we have seen, even MAD won't work to prevent them from trying to kill you. You may cry and find it unpleasant when Ole Yeller got rabies, but its either kill him, or let him kill your family. It has to be done, or even the valued tenets of a morality that says "Thou shalt not kill" dies out, along with you and everyone who believes that way.

You don't like it, and I can't say I blame you. But when the theory is in conflict with the real world, it is the theory that needs fixing, because the universe doesn't give a damn what we think about anything. It simply is. It works, it runs, people are free to do whatever they can, and you either stop those from harming you or others, or else let the bad guys win.

Hope this helps. I wish we lived in a world where "thou shalt not kill" could be the law of the land. But we live in this one, and either adjust to its realities, or die. That is life.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

DRAKON

Friday, February 13, 2004 1:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ciara:
I completely understand, Maniac, AND Succatash. But it still remains that the troops over there should have our support, whether we support the war effort or NOT.

I have to agree here. I don't really see how you can support the troops and NOT their mission. Its a bit like telling a pipe fitter that you like him as a person, but think pipe fitting in and of itself is some kind of evil. In the pipe fitter's case, it is likely to have any kind of impact on his ability to do his job, and even if it does, it ain't that big a deal.

But in a soldier's case, I see those doubts being hazzardous, an added burden in an already hostile and dangerous situation.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

TRAGICSTORY

Friday, February 13, 2004 2:46 PM

Tash,
The simple answer to your question of "Why should I support the military?" is "Because you reap the benefits of their past exploits."

The military, the World Bank and the IMF are what allow you to live your lifestyle. Our standard of living is so high because we exploit the rest of the world. That is why the world hates us. We are Top Dog and that makes everyone else our Bitch. There will always be a Top Dog and every Top Dog abuses their postition because it benifits them the most. The only problem is once we lose Top Dog status, every country in the world will set out to get revenge. (You need to look no further than the UN to see the seeds of Anti-American groups forming.)

America is in Afganistan and Iraq because those are countries that are hurting our position as Top Dog. Terrorists are the equivilant of our CIA, except that they are on someone else's payrole. They do what they are told to do and each country can disavow all knowledge. Lybia and the bombing of Pan Am leaps to mind.

So in closing I will suggest that we Americans are already hated for many reasons. However our military makes us hated and FEARED. And that is what sustains the United States.

(My Solution)

Withdraw from the UN. Withdraw from all foreign bases. Add a neutrality amendment to the constitution. Close the borders.

This would pretty much cause World War III (in which the US would be neutral amd make hand over fist selling supplies to both sides)

LOL, I just realized my signature answered your questin alot better than my rant.

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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

ADEPTUS

Friday, February 13, 2004 3:15 PM

I hope this board doesn't turn all political like the Official Message Board.

No power in the 'verse can stop me.

SEVENPERCENT

Friday, February 13, 2004 3:34 PM

Quote:
. I don't really see how you can support the troops and NOT their mission. Its a bit like telling a pipe fitter that you like him as a person, but think pipe fitting in and of itself is some kind of evil. In the pipe fitter's case, it is likely to have any kind of impact on his ability to do his job, and even if it does, it ain't that big a deal.

Not the same thing- You cannot concievably compare pipefitting with killing people, no matter how cute you want the metaphor to be- You can easily support the man, not the job- In the military, there is a chain of command, which you must follow, and the orders are given from the top down based on appointed folks (the topmost being the one the majority elected, right or wrong, idiot or not) - To say you support them and not the job means you support THEM, and want them to be safe, and kill who they need to kill and come home again asap, and work in your own country to insure that the decision to have them somewhere is changed-
The 'pipefitter' metaphor is BS- He is doing the job, he makes the decisions, HE can quit- So if pipefitting is bad, he might just be making the wrong life choice- The soldier does not have that option (he cant just go 'I think this is a bad job' and quit), therefore, you can support him (the soldier) and not the job- I've done a lot of jobs I didnt like, but I always did them 100%, and it's the same with them- I dont like what they are doing, but I expect 100% out of them regardless till it's time for them to come home- I have friends in Iraq, they know I want them home safe and want them to do whatever they have to do to get the job done and stay safe- But they also know that I think the decision to invade was a bad call, so I write letters and speak out- It might sound like a contradiction, but, hey, as we say around here, 'some people juggle geese'-

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

ADEPTUS

Friday, February 13, 2004 3:53 PM

Quote:
The soldier does not have that option

Except for the fact that we have an all-volunteer military. There's no draft or required service. Every man and woman in our armed forces is serving by their own choice, knowing full well the sole and exact purpose the military fulfills. And I, for one, applaud each and every one of them.

I believe the pipefitter analogy is valid.

No power in the 'verse can stop me.

WILLIAMX

Friday, February 13, 2004 4:11 PM

The moment an individual completes the oath of servive, they have abrogated numerous of thier rights . . . including the right to speak ill of the governement and the mission they may find themselves performing.

The fact that this war is on, and it's a bad mission, in no way causes me to look down onthe troops. the all volounteer gig doesn't mean that the military or the people within it can pick and choose it's missions. The commander in chief is ultimitly responsible to the american people and it is not the soldiers job to tell the CiC or the american people how and where things should be done. They take orders, not give them . . .

It's easy to support the troops yet deplore the mission. It's really the only course of dissent I can follow, since I myself am a vet, from a family of vets.
Others may not have this boundary . . .

KUGELBLITZ

Friday, February 13, 2004 4:14 PM

You cannot compare ANYTHING to killing people. Killing someone is likely the one act which can completely and totally separate someone from the pale. There are other acts that may seem of this life-shaking type, but they are mainly sanctioned-falling in love, childbirth and so on. This not to draw a comparison between killing and childbirth.

Should you support the military? I think you mean those you communicate with, specifically.

Look, the reverse of not supporting our fellow citizens abroad is to despise them. There does seem to be some kind of growth involved in the fact that returning servicemen are not reviled as they were in Vietnam. The fallout from that kind of response is still happening, now.

Perhaps our perceptions are attuned to the fact that we now know who put the soldiers there and those are the people who deserve our criticism. Great. Write some letters if that is your deal.

It is quite myopic to think that the generic "you" has some specific and constructive advise to someone humping around in a rifle platoon in the mountains.

Should you support the military, i.e. the Armed Forces?

Supporting the military is a vague concept. The Army Materiel Command does that just fine. What you mean is, do you or can you be civil to someone who is actively engaged in the practice of slaying people because our government condones this?

Form my experience, soldiers are like any other people, some of them you will like and some not, your mileage may vary. With the rather HUGE exception that they are members of a team and must, MUST be very, very tuned into what they are doing. The penalities for inattention or poor soldiering are much more extreme than a burst pipe or backed up sewage, obviously. Not only that, you can do everything correctly and still wind up in serious straits or worse.

There is a culture therein that must be understood before the Hooahs or Urrahs or Alliantes can be viewed as cheerleading, although sometimes they are.

So for the one idea, read up on some statecraft, on the other try looking into some of the soldier level accounts of combat. They may or may not help, but you will certainly be wiser for doing so.

I will happily provide a bibliography if you like.

"Could you be more specific"?

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