Blondie Bear Vs. Captain Forehead

POSTED BY: deepgirl187
UPDATED: Saturday, December 9, 2006 01:29
VIEWED: 6794
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BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Monday, October 30, 2006 10:54 AM

Quote:
I don't understand why there are so many who actually believe Spike tried to get back his soul in order to be with Buffy. His intention was to get the chip out of his head, not to get a soul, and the writers cheated in Season 7 to make it seem his soul was what he was after all along.

Actually, when Spike left at the end of the season, he said Buffy would get "what she deserves". There was talk from that moment among the fans that Spike was looking for a soul. I'd like to know where you got your information because all the spoiler sites had the soul angle sinse the end of Season 6.

On topic: The tension between them is almost all Buffy related, though alot of Angel's animosity towards Spike is because of Spike constantly being a pain in the ass (something he does very well).

As to which one is the better person, I'd have to go with Angel. True Spike opted for his soul as opposed to Angel who was cursed with it for murdering a gypsy, it still doesn't compare to all of the good that Angel has accomplished in his quest for redemption. Spike is a very selfish character and up until his (not so) final sacrifice in Buffy, everything he did was motivated by some level of personal gain.

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I'll be in my bunk.
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CHRISISALL

Monday, October 30, 2006 4:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
His intention was to get the chip out of his head, not to get a soul, and the writers cheated in Season 7 to make it seem his soul was what he was after all along.

Even if so, are writers not allowed to change their minds?
"You were my Yoda, man!"
"She always did love to dance."

Topic:
Angel tries hard and works at being good, and Spike got Buffy for nothing. Plus what the others said above.

Angel is more noble because of the brooding.

Terse Chrisisall

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, October 30, 2006 5:10 PM

Great posts so far, a lot of interesting ideas.

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
Angel cannot be good without a soul. His personality changes completely, and he's constantly worried about losing control. Spike with or without a soul is just Spike. There's a difference in regards to murders and such, but the personality doesn't change.

Isn't it possible to use this arguement for Spike being the better of the two? Not through actions, obviously, but perhaps through character? I mean, the evil Angelus committed is legendary, whereas Spike, even at his worst, never really ascribed to such heinous behavior. His primary objective was more to have fun and be destructive than to cause pain and torment. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but I also think that there is more to Spike's behavior than self-gratification.

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"So long and goodnight."

ECGORDON

Monday, October 30, 2006 5:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by babywiththepower:
Quote:
I don't understand why there are so many who actually believe Spike tried to get back his soul in order to be with Buffy. His intention was to get the chip out of his head, not to get a soul, and the writers cheated in Season 7 to make it seem his soul was what he was after all along.

Actually, when Spike left at the end of the season, he said Buffy would get "what she deserves". There was talk from that moment among the fans that Spike was looking for a soul. I'd like to know where you got your information because all the spoiler sites had the soul angle sinse the end of Season 6.

My opinions are my own, I don't have any information from another source. I did not watch Buffy as it aired, only on dvd after the fact. It appeared to me that Spike was taken by surprise that it was his soul he received following his trials. I have no idea what the writers actually intended or what fans at the time thought.

GROOSALUGG

Monday, October 30, 2006 6:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:
Originally posted by babywiththepower:
Quote:
I don't understand why there are so many who actually believe Spike tried to get back his soul in order to be with Buffy. His intention was to get the chip out of his head, not to get a soul, and the writers cheated in Season 7 to make it seem his soul was what he was after all along.

Actually, when Spike left at the end of the season, he said Buffy would get "what she deserves". There was talk from that moment among the fans that Spike was looking for a soul. I'd like to know where you got your information because all the spoiler sites had the soul angle sinse the end of Season 6.

My opinions are my own, I don't have any information from another source. I did not watch Buffy as it aired, only on dvd after the fact. It appeared to me that Spike was taken by surprise that it was his soul he received following his trials. I have no idea what the writers actually intended or what fans at the time thought.

To me, the dead-giveaway that he was after the soul the whole time is that he never specifically tells the cave demon he wants the chip out. The writing--and James' acting--are done in a way to mislead you into thinking that, but when you go back and watch it again, you'll notice he's very ambiguous about the whole thing, and exactly what he wants. When you say that Spike was 'taken by surprise' by the soul thing, I disagree with you--he was screaming in pain, because getting the soul back hurt!

And as far as Angel vs. Spike, and which one's more noble and all that, I always get a kick out of how people compare them by putting present-day Angel up against present-day Spike. You wanna say Angel's better because he's selfless, working for redemption, etc., fine. But remember--he's had a hundred years since getting his soul back to get to this point. Spike's had two.

Instead, why not compare the two of them in their first two years of re-ensoulment? Spike's sacrificed himself closing a hellmouth, helped the helpless for several months in LA (I'm not gonna go episode-by-episode of AtS S5, listing his accomplishments), and possibly sacrificed himself again, helping to bring down the power-elite of the Apocalypse. (And all those things on 'Angel' were hardly done for selfish reasons, to impress Buffy--he didn't even want her to know he was back.)

Angel, meanwhile, was beating up men on the street and dragging their women into alleys. Crawling back to Darla and begging her to take him in. Killing humans (granted, rapists and murderers) to prove to her he could still be a vampire. Eventually disappearing into the gutters for the better part of a century, not helping anyone, until Whistler looked him up. Oh yeah, and why'd he sign on with Whistler's team and start doing the hero-thing? Because he got a look at Buffy, and fell in love. Gee, sound familiar?

Sorry, but I don't think this one's even close. Spike's the better man by a wide margin...

CHRISISALL

Monday, October 30, 2006 6:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:

the evil Angelus committed is legendary, whereas Spike, even at his worst, never really ascribed to such heinous behavior. His primary objective was more to have fun and be destructive than to cause pain and torment.

Spike was like a cat with a mouse; have your fun, and then dinner.
Angelus was all about the lingering and continuing horror of his deeds. So he HAS to be twice as good to balance his twice as bad.

Spike was full of good, he just didn't use much of it Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Monday, October 30, 2006 6:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:

Instead, why not compare the two of them in their first two years of re-ensoulment? Spike's sacrificed himself closing a hellmouth, helped the helpless for several months in LA (I'm not gonna go episode-by-episode of AtS S5, listing his accomplishments), and possibly sacrificed himself again, helping to bring down the power-elite of the Apocalypse. (And all those things on 'Angel' were hardly done for selfish reasons, to impress Buffy--he didn't even want her to know he was back.)

Angel, meanwhile, was beating up men on the street and dragging their women into alleys. Crawling back to Darla and begging her to take him in. Killing humans (granted, rapists and murderers) to prove to her he could still be a vampire. Eventually disappearing into the gutters for the better part of a century, not helping anyone, until Whistler looked him up. Oh yeah, and why'd he sign on with Whistler's team and start doing the hero-thing? Because he got a look at Buffy, and fell in love. Gee, sound familiar?

Sorry, but I don't think this one's even close. Spike's the better man by a wide margin...

Whoah Groos, a very compelling argument, dude.

What he said Chrisisall

CYBERSNARK

Monday, October 30, 2006 7:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here,

Well, vampire's advocate, anyway.

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

EMBERS

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 3:06 AM

Spike didn't need the chip out,
if he had wanted to hurt Buffy then obviously he could already do that...
with the chip in place.

Joss had James (as Spike) play up the angry guy to fool people...
but they really should have gotten a clue
(and the joke)
once his soul was restored.

oh well, if people persist in not understanding what was clearly bait and switch then there is no point in arguing with them....

MRBLUESUN

Monday, November 20, 2006 6:28 PM

In my opinion Spike beats Angel in terms of 'goodness' hands down. Firstly Angel had his soul forced upon him and has been nothing but a giant pain in the ass ever since, whearas Spike went and got a soul of his own free will and then set about helping Buffy beat up *insert villain of the week here*.
Also for thise of you who say that Angel fights the good fight for moral reasons whilst Spike does it solely for himself, guess again. The only reason that Angel is good is to try and escape his own feelings of guilt, hmm not so selfless now are we Angel cakes.

Spike: It's bollocks, Angel! It's your brand of bollocks from first to last!
Angel: You can't ever see the big picture. You can't see any picture!
Spike: I'm talking about something primal, all right? Savagery, brutal animal instinct.
Angel: Which wins out every time with you. You know, the human race has evolved, Spike!
Spike: Into a bunch of namby-pamby, self-analyzing wankers who could never hope to triumph against--
Angel: We're bigger, we're smarter, plus there's such a thing called teamwork, not to mention the superstitious fear of your "pure aggressors"!
Spike: You-just-want-it-to-be the way you-want-it-to-be.
Angel: IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT I WANT!
[Bewildered Wesley enters]
Wesley: Is this something we should all be discussing?
Angel: [pauses] No.
Wesley: It sounded important.
Angel: It was mostly...theoretical...
Spike: Look, if cavemen and astronauts got into a fight, who would win?
Wesley: .....Ah. You've been yelling at each other for forty minutes about this?
[Angel and Spike look at the floor]

Wesley: [thinks for a moment] Do the astronaunts have weapons?
Spike and Angel: No.

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