Reps Cheated again Voter fraud just didn't work this time
POSTED BY: piratejenny
UPDATED: Friday, November 17, 2006 19:55
VIEWED: 9623
PAGE 2 of 7
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
...and I would have voted against it (we don't need libraries)...
Hero:
I'm disappointed in you! I'm a pretty conservative fellow, but I disagree strongly with your statement about not needing libraries. We need them now more than ever! The information age is upon us and there are millions of americans who are unable to take advantage of it because they don't know how or haven't the means to do so. Libraries, in some cases, are their only avenue for gaining access to what so many of us take for granted. Of course, as a public librarian I may be a bit biased. What makes you think we don't need libraries anymore?
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"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."
---Napoleon Bonaparte
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Quote:
Lack of evidence is proof.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Stick with stand-up comedy, Zero.
You're way better at it than politics.
-Frem
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Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
Hero:
I'm disappointed in you! I'm a pretty conservative fellow, but I disagree strongly with your statement about not needing libraries.
Believe me, this was not an easy choice. I had to consider many different factors.
Quote:
What makes you think we don't need libraries anymore?
Actually you sum up my answer very nicely...
Quote:
The information age is upon us and there are millions of americans who are unable to take advantage of it because they don't know how or haven't the means to do so. Libraries, in some cases, are their only avenue for gaining access to what so many of us take for granted.
So by eliminating libraries we limit opportunity for the up and coming younger generation to follow me into the job market and compete with me for future employment. As the number of skilled workers decrease wages, benefits, working conditions, and bargaining power increases for those of us already in the skilled worker pool.
As those wages increase more persons will be encouraged to use other means to gain access to the skilled worker pool, means that don't necessarily cost me directly in taxes. Those persons will have bettered themselves and society in a manner that does not cost society as much in frivilous social spending and in a way that delays competion for my own piece of the pie until I've more then had my fill.
Quote:
Of course, as a public librarian I may be a bit biased.
Well, there you go.
Turns out I was right: http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/13/news/economy/fisher_workers.reut/index
.htm?section=money_latest
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
So by eliminating libraries we limit opportunity for the up and coming younger generation to follow me into the job market and compete with me for future employment. As the number of skilled workers decrease wages, benefits, working conditions, and bargaining power increases for those of us already in the skilled worker pool.
These kinds of frank statements are one thing I like about you Hero, you say what you think without reservation, but it also makes you seem a bit callous some times. That sounds like social darwinism to me, I take it you don't agree with the compassionate conservative approach?
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
As those wages increase more persons will be encouraged to use other means to gain access to the skilled worker pool, means that don't necessarily cost me directly in taxes. Those persons will have bettered themselves and society in a manner that does not cost society as much in frivilous social spending and in a way that delays competion for my own piece of the pie until I've more then had my fill.
Does that mean you don't use the library at all? If not, why? You could save yourself a great deal of the money you seem to covet so much, by using the library regularly. Books are getting more and more expensive each year, and using the library would save loads of cash on that score alone. If you take a look at the electronic research resources available to you, you could probably also cancel any of your subscriptions to newspapers or magazines and save even more money. If you have kids, most public libraries offer some great kids programs that usually cost you absolutely nothing.
As far as "frivilous social spending" goes, I don't think libraries fall into that category. They offer valuable services to every sector of the population, how many social programs can proclaim that? If you look into the percentage of your taxes being spent on local public libraries, I think you would be surprised at how small a percentage it is given all they have to offer. Again, I'm biased, but as a conservative I see the benefits of this frivilous endeavor everyday and like what I see.
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"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration." ~Andrew Carnegie
"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert
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Quote:Bullpuckies. Statisticians figured out the odds of exit polling always being "wrong" in the same direction, not conspiracy theorists. And it was the private firm in FLA that created the no-vote rolls that flagged the problems to Katherine Harris.
And these sources for the supposed Republican cheating are often the same sources that prove the WTC was intentionally demolished and that the planes hitting them were empty and controlled by remote.
Quote:So why do you resist closing whatever loopholes remain and making the system transparent and accountable? I thought the GOP was the party of accountability? Give me ONE good reason NOT to improve the voting system.
Does fraud happen? Yes. Is it systematic or orchestrated? No.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Statisticians figured out the odds of exit polling always being "wrong" in the same direction, not conspiracy theorists.
Conspiracy types take advantage of a correct statement to draw a false conclusion.
It is statistically impossible for the exit polls to be consistantly "wrong" in the same direction, correct. So must be something going on...and there is: The reason is because we're dealing with folk, not statitistics. Many Republicans don't answer polls and some that answer, like myself, deliberately give incorrect information. I suspect some people will also tell the pollsters what they are expected to say, "yes, I voted for so and so" when in fact they got in there, closed the curtain, and voted the other way. It only takes a few of all these folk put together to throw off an exit poll.
Perhaps the real unfair voter intimidation is the person demanding to know your vote the minute you leave the booth. That aint right.
The only polls that count on election day are the ones that take place in the voting booth. Maybe we should get rid of the exit polls because they are always so wrong.
H
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Hero- there is no reason to think that Republicans in one state behave very differently than they do in other states or in previous elections, but your hypothesis is that Republicans in select states suddenly and simulatenously mass-decided to goof the exit polls? Wow, and you think I'M a conspiracy theorist? 
I noticed that you didn't address the Katherine Harris issue.
But you still have not given me ONE good reason not to revamp our voting systems to make them less prone to error and manipulation.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Signym:
I have to agree with Hero where exit polls are concerned. While I don't lie to exit pollers, I would definitely not participate in one, and if forced would lie out of annoyance. I think most conservatives feel the same way. We don't, as a rule, trust pollsters and would tend to try and undermine them rather than help them. I also don't think Hero has taken a concrete position on the need to reform the electoral process one way or another. I think he has correctly pointed out that election fraud is not the sole pervue of the one political party. Dems and Reps are both guilty.
Hero:
Sorry to get on a tangent about libraries, just wanted to say that I think you are right. Democrats would have cried serious foul if they had not swept the elections. As it is, they are still going to cry foul, but imagine what it would have been like if they had lost. I think it would have been a good thing overall, however. Anytime you shine an intense light on an issue, its a good thing. We would've learned if they were just sore losers or if they had a real beef.
Soupcatcher:
I agree with the general tone of your post in the thread. We should look more closely at how we vote, and there is no reason we shouldn't be able to get it right, and give everyone full confidence in the outcome. Unfortunately, in the current partisan charged atmosphere, I don't think it's likely we would get a resolution that would be satisfactory to both parties. I worry that any efforts to do so would only undermine confidence in the process even more, and make things worse. Maybe I'm being too cynical.
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"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie
"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert
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Razza:
Quote:You haven't addressed my point: Do you think conservatives in 2004 Ohio would behave very differently than convervatives in 2004 Oregon or in 2000 Ohio? That's the hypothesis that you're proposing: that conservatives in SOME states behaved very anomalously compared to how they behaved four years earlier and how they behaved in other states at the same time.
I have to agree with Hero where exit polls are concerned. While I don't lie to exit pollers, I would definitely not participate in one, and if forced would lie out of annoyance. I think most conservatives feel the same way.
Quote:Why not? Vote accuracy is a technical issue, not an ideological one. There is no reason whatsoever -except intended vote fraud - not to get behind an accurate vote and a tranaparent process.
Unfortunately, in the current partisan charged atmosphere, I don't think it's likely we would get a resolution that would be satisfactory to both parties.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hero- there is no reason to think that Republicans in one state behave very differently than they do in other states or in previous elections, but your hypothesis is that Republicans in select states suddenly and simulatenously mass-decided to goof the exit polls? Wow, and you think I'M a conspiracy theorist?
Not every exit poll was off by the same amount. I suggest that some Republicans don't answer. Say 2% of the total electorate. Now your poll is off 2%. Some lie, add another .5%, now your off 2.5%. Some independents or Democrats lie, say another .5%, now your at 3%. Now add a margin of error of 2.5-5% depending on the poll and add or subract a couple percent for various differences by state. Its easy to get to a 5% difference and even higher if all the factors break high.
Thats a whole lot more believable then some dark conspiracy.
H
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