Look, I know it's been overdone - but abortion - yay or nay?
POSTED BY: FLF
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 13:13
VIEWED: 24147
PAGE 18 of 26
Quote:I can see how that would be a necessary characteristics of some definitions of human life, but why does it need to be a criteria for the basic definition or the most general definition?
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
"Human life" MAY begin at conception. But it needs to be viable outside the womb.
Edit:
On the other hand, if you're saying that human life begins at conception, which you did, then I think we may actually agree, at least on the basic definition.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Finn,
Good points, all. Roe v. Wade was an incredibly corrupt way to create a law, which I hope everyone recognizes, regardless of their stance on the issue. If you're read Roe's recount of it, she said she was stuck in a position. I think she had cheated and gotten pregnant and didn't want her husband to know. Anyway, the feminist lawyers told her that wouldn't fly, and helped her construct the false rape testimony she used in court. She said they came in with an agenda to make this law, and they used her as a tool. But this is not what the supreme court is for, (just as I'll readily admit it shouldn't have interfered in the 2000 election. If anything, according to precedent, a special session of congress should have convened to clear up the matter, as in the 1824 case.) But the job of the supreme court is to interpret the constitution, not to draft legislation.
I agree that it was a feminist victory, and that they sought it for a "women's rights" victory. The problem with the 60s feminist movement is that they had already won all the equal rights issues, and so they needed to create new issues.
Signy,
This is a pretty weak argument. I don't think there's an appreciable difference between a fetus and a baby, and any argument which hinges on this idea, is not only ideologue, but is most likely doomed.
Furthermore, the only sound argument I've heard is Citizen's, and I think that if you are to take the position, it should be consistant with other arguments which might also follow that line of logic, ie. "people will use drugs anyways, so they should be legalized (under controlled circumstances) to prevent the massive gang warfare we see today" which wouldn't be my position, but it would be one consistant with pro-choice, and not altogether insane.
Quote:
53% of ALL adults are pro-choice, only 39% are anti-choice.
According to Zogby 56% are pro-life
And Zogby is not only a respectable pollster, but also is not a conservative.
Okay,
Finn,
Capital punishment is inconsistent with pro-life because x% of innocent people will be executed. If you have respect for all human life, you cannot tolerate this level of error, because decent hardworking citizens in a zone of peace, will, by their own govt., be picked up, wrongfully convicted, which happens with a fair degree of regularity.
I oppose capital punishment, and have no shortage of arguments against it. Here's another one:
Capital punishment is the ultimate in big govt. it is what creates the ultimate authority, power over life and death, in the hands of authorities, and not only will be, but has been, and is now, being used to silence opponents of the govt. such as Timothy McVeigh, or the people at Waco., which is not about guilt, but about ulterior motivations.
Here's another: The only real reason for capital punishment is as an intimidation technique. Only a dictator would need an intimidation technique. In a republic, it can be expected that reason will win out, and we suspect the likes of Timothy McVeigh are not going to win that reason argument.
Or: The supposed justification for the death penalty is "justice for the victims" but justice is about stopping crimes, not retribution. If it becomes about retribution, then it is not only unchristian, it's uncivilized. The rule of law becomes distorted vengeance. Ultimately, the moral underpinnings of the system are undone, and bloodthirst takes over.
And: Bloodlust becomes to main purpose of execution. When the televised execution becomes commonplace, the people will long for Roman entertainment... Hey, this is a science fiction board, we are *supposed* to speculate on how everything can head south.
But I hope you see that death penalty is at the very least *not* on the road to a healthy enlightened society.
Honestly I don't think an abortion debate is going to get us anywhere worth getting.
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I'm sorry, but the 'position' is pro-choice, not pro-abortion. There aren't folks out there picketing in front of churches, ob/gyn offices and fertility clinics with placards that read "Do the world a favor, abort your babies!" The point is that the choice is not to be made by anyone but the people involved.
The idea of encouraging people to be more responsible for their actions, including sexual behavior, is absolutely necessary if we, as a society, want to reach a point were there is even a semblance of balance and peace. The answer is education, not repression; self-discipline, not fear of punishment; critical thinking, not dogmatic blinders. It is *irresponsible* to accuse and obstruct those who would provide and encourage intelligent and responsible sexual behavior, not to mention the resources to act on those choices. You want fewer abortions? Make it possible for people, especially young people, to choose abstinence, masturbation, or safe sex, without penalizing them, according to their hearts and minds. Teach them to think and you won't have to stand over them with hellfire and brimstone.
As to this liberal vs conservative argument, the fact is that what people want is the freedom to run their own lives within a common framework of laws that protects their right to the pursuit of happiness up to and until it infringes on that same right of others - thus, to live in society, we agree not to kill each other, steal from each other, brutalize each other. What name your neighbor uses to call upon the divine doesn't infringe on your rights; what course of treatment, if any, the cancer patient in the bed next to yours chooses does not infringe on your rights; what stand you choose to take on subjects like abortion, the death penalty, fiscal responsibility or taxes doesn't infringe my rights, either.
Talk, debate, converse, by all means express your opinion, but don't try to put into law preferences that are based on something as purely subjective as faith or 'morality'.
Just like faith and science, law cannot be dictated from a pulpit.
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Pro-Choice 100%
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DT
"According to Zogby 56% are pro-life"
I noticed, as usual, you didn't provide a link. So I looked it up. I had to go to the google cache to do it, but the Zogby poll you looked at was from 2004. Mine was from 2006.
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Finn,
"human life begins at conception. At the most basic level, human life is a living organism with human chromosomes."
Now we're getting somewhere. But I really need to know how you would feel about flushing a placenta dwon the toilet.
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Quote:
Originally posted by FLF:
Like the itle says, I know it's been overdone, but I have just spent the better part of an hour arguing (fruitlessly, I might add) that as far as I'm concerned it's a woman's choice - and no-one has the right to take that away from her.
Any other opinions here? Can anyone suggest how I can convince my friend or shall I just give up?
Thanks.
I couldn't have said it better myself. The problem is that too many people equate Pro Choice with Pro Abortion. Abortion isn't a route I would ever take, but who the Hell am I to make that choice for someone else?
The thing I love in this debate are the hypocrites that say "make abortion illegal unless the woman was raped". Does the woman being raped make the child any less alive? Did that child ask to be the product of rape? The answer is no. So why is it okay to 'murder' one baby over another?
Far as I'm concerned this is an all or nothing situation, and I personally believe it's the woman's choice.
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Quote:Well then, what about the differecne between a blastocyst and a baby? Any appreciable difference there?
I don't think there's an appreciable difference between a fetus and a baby,
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:Well, now THAT was a dodge! I could spell it out for you but DT made the argument more cogently than I.
Now I have no clue what war and capital punishment have to do with this. These two things would seem to be quite independent of any definition of human life.
Although I would add one more point: It doesn't work to deter violent crime. Most people who commit violent crimes have something screwed up with their brains: "... almost all vicious criminals have some combination of (1) a childhood of abuse and/or neglect, (2) brain injuries through accident or abuse, and (3) psychotic symptoms, especially paranoia." The only people that the death penalty could intimidate are the people who are ALREADY more or less law-abiding and "normal"- in other words, the general population.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Finn,
"human life begins at conception. At the most basic level, human life is a living organism with human chromosomes."
Now we're getting somewhere. But I really need to know how you would feel about flushing a placenta dwon the toilet.
Doesn't a placenta fall into the same category as fingernails and hair? Human by-product?
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