Universal's legal action against 11th Hour
POSTED BY: CABridges
UPDATED: Monday, November 13, 2006 09:47
VIEWED: 59280
PAGE 11 of 17
Canter, I love you....
That's it exactly. They do have rights under the current system, but can't they see they're cutting off their nose to spite their face?
Things need to change. Studios need to realize that there is something intangible within a strong fandom community that can't be captured in traditional marketing, and that with new technology, isn't likely to be stopped (or shouldn't be, given certain non-defamatory or exact duplication restrictions), short of killing the fandom entirely - which would be stupid!
It's all about the Long Tail...those media elements that take a while to take off; that need word of mouth, repeated viewings, and slow exposure. Properties like Firefly and Serenity are not blockbusters, and shouldn't be. They're treasures to be savored, and passed with respect and love. It takes time for people to get exposure to them, but there is money to be made for a studio, even years after the fact. Blockbusters are expensive and risky. They're often also insipid. Consumers are demanding a wider range of products to appeal to a wider range of desires. Let us help work the products in the Long Tail economy -- We're not out to hurt the studios, we truly want them to succeed. Just don't stomp all over us, and respect us. If not, we do have other options, and we can create what we want.
Joss gave us the vision and the idea, it's up to us to carry the torch if we want, and figure out how to do it without the studio's support if we have to. It sucks, but until they're willing to meet us halfway, that's the way it has to be. Eventually someone will get wise, and say "hmmm, maybe they've got something here, and it's ok to work with the fans instead of abusing them." I'd like it to be Universal. I have a feeling it will be New Line Cinema first, unfortunately.
"We gotta go to that crappy town where I'M a hero..."
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Quote:
Originally posted by shinyhappyklin:
can't they see they're cutting off their nose to spite their face?
I highly doubt they see it that way. I know we like to think we're a huge fandom that any company would be proud to milk for ever last penny, but the statistics don't show it. We haven't produced gobs of money for them to swim in. They see us as a failure and potential legal action against them is not worth it just to keep a failed fandom happy.
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>Also, the difference apparently is that 11th hour did official licensed work before.
Ahhh. This makes a lot more sense now.
THIS is why Universal is demanding money.
11th hour is in a whole other circumstance from all the other people out there making Firefly/Serenity product.
This is why they didn't get a C$D and the studio went right for monetary compensation.
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:Quote:
Originally posted by Arbas:
Fair comment but surely to be accurate you'd need complete sales figures sinc the store opened - or to relevent to the licence sales figures since the licence was granted.
Not having a dig here but what is positive about this?
edit - and I have to ask again - what is different about 11th hours setup to warrant the demand for fees when others have only rec'd a c&d order? Or are you saying the action ISN'T being taken by Universal but rather the licence holder - if that's the case we have a simple reaction (you need to KNOW this is accurate info though) we publicise across every medium we have access to what the licence holder has done then boycott the company.
The positive side is they're a giant company who gave us a movie. All the lawsuits they've filed in the past built up to us getting a movie. Did you boycott back then? Apparently it's only bad when it's taking away something you want. Rather than when it's giving you exactly what you want.
Also, the difference apparently is that 11th hour did official licensed work before. Apparently providing art for the Serenity RPG. That could bring down all sorts of extra legal hellfire on her. If she signed any sort of contract it probably had plenty of legalease in it. She may have also been given access to Universal copyrighted material to produce the game. They might think she is now using that material in her unauthorized merchandise.
Get real - lawsuits don't finance movies WE DO by going to see the movies then buying the DVDs and the spin offs and the games etc etc etc and all this lawsuit is doing is pissing off this consumer - no one has ever denied the legal issues in these cases, it stands to reason that c&d orders will go out when a licence is sold - what has got my back up in this case is the demand for retrospective fees - this may be explained by the previous work 11th hour has done on the RPG but a lot of fans are going to think that would be offset by the free advertising work she's also done - and for christs sake $8k dollars damages probably won't pay the lawyers doughnut charges ...
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Quote:They don't own FireFly, that's owned by 20th Century Fox, they do own Serenity and any works pertaining there too. Anything based on FireFly is a derivative work owned by Fox (unless a license has been obtained as is the case with Universal) anything based on Serenity is a derivative work belonging to Universal.
Originally posted by Canter:
I'm a lawyer.
Sorry.
I respect the rights of Universal to protect their intellectual property. I believe they have the right to ensure that property they spent money on are protected for their benefit.
But, here is the thing. I don't believe Serenity or Firefly belongs solely to Universal. I don't believe Serenity or Firefly is anyone's property. I believe that when they expressly and impliedly encouraged and condoned fan-advertising and promotion, they abandoned part or all of their exclusive rights in favour of the public.
That would be my defense if it went to court.
Quote:Doesn't mean you are morally wrong, but it does mean you are legally wrong.
But, being from a different legal system, I'd probably lose. But losing doesn't mean I'm wrong.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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A non-confrontational but point-making response:
The Browncoat Invoice
http://www.browncoatinvoice.com/
(Note to those who don't read the "about" page there: This is not a real invoice, duh.)
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
They don't own FireFly, that's owned by 20th Century Fox, they do own Serenity and any works pertaining there too. Anything based on FireFly is a derivative work owned by Fox (unless a license has been obtained as is the case with Universal) anything based on Serenity is a derivative work belonging to Universal.
You misunderstand.
I know Universal owns the right to proceeds and derivatives from the movie "Serenity".
I also know that Fox owns the right to proceeds and derivatives from the TV-series "Firefly".
(I might have mentioned that I'm a lawyer. We study law.)
What I was trying to say, and apparently not doing too good a job with it, was that to me, the TV-series and the BDM is elements of the Browncoat experience. The community of Browncoats, the rallying to a central standard, the discussions, the friends, the EMOTION is bigger than just what we saw on the screen. We as fans helped create this 'verse, with our support and campaigns. The community, the emotion, is not owned by any company.
When Universal reacted in the way that they did against 11th hour, they sort of attacked what makes the Firefly/Serenity 'verse special. They attacked a Browncoat. They attacked each and every one of us. It's not what they did. It's how they did it. They demeaned our effort. They, basically told us, "You don't really matter. We will tell you what to do. Get in line." And I don't want to.
Quote:
Doesn't mean you are morally wrong, but it does mean you are legally wrong.
Kinda what I meant...... I know I'd be legally wrong. (Have I mentioned the fact about the lawyering?) But where does it say that legal equals justice?
Burn the land and boil the sea...
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Quote:Yes, I can read
Originaly posted by Canter:
(I might have mentioned that I'm a lawyer. We study law.)
. But that doesn't mean you know who owns the legal rights to every legal property on the face of the Earth.Quote:Yes but legal (and as a lawyer I'm sure you know this) they do. They own it and every material thing derived from it. They own the images and fan fiction in the Blue Sun Room. It's theirs by copyright law.
What I was trying to say, and apparently not doing too good a job with it, was that to me, the TV-series and the BDM is elements of the Browncoat experience. The community of Browncoats, the rallying to a central standard, the discussions, the friends, the EMOTION is bigger than just what we saw on the screen. We as fans helped create this 'verse, with our support and campaigns. The community, the emotion, is not owned by any company.
When Universal reacted in the way that they did against 11th hour, they sort of attacked what makes the Firefly/Serenity 'verse special. They attacked a Browncoat. They attacked each and every one of us. It's not what they did. It's how they did it. They demeaned our effort. They, basically told us, "You don't really matter. We will tell you what to do. Get in line." And I don't want to.
My original reply was to the legallity, I'm not talking about that fuzzy feeling it gives you when you watch the episodes. Embers alluded that if you've created an all original work it belongs to you, it doesn't, it's a derivative and it belongs to the studio. We can get all romantic and talk about how this new image makes us feel but that doesn't change the fact that some other entity can come along and take it away from us on a whim.
Quote:I think that's what I said, the law not being the same thing as justice, but that doesn't change the fact that Universal and Fox can step in and take away our favorite toys on a whim and there's nothing we can realistically do about it.
Kinda what I meant...... I know I'd be legally wrong. (Have I mentioned the fact about the lawyering?) But where does it say that legal equals justice?
I mean we could go native and hurl spears at them but that's not going to effect them so much.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leiasky:
>Also, the difference apparently is that 11th hour did official licensed work before.
Ahhh. This makes a lot more sense now.
THIS is why Universal is demanding money.
11th hour is in a whole other circumstance from all the other people out there making Firefly/Serenity product.
This is why they didn't get a C$D and the studio went right for monetary compensation.
There's still a lot of unanswered questions, and this situation is still in play. I would consider it a favor if y'all didn't go making speculations with not much info to go on. Especially when those speculations, posted on a public board, tend to put me in a bad light.
My Cafe Press shop did not feature any official logos, screen caps, likeness of actors, or reproductions of designs from either Firefly or Serenity. EVERYTHING in my Cafe Press shop was my original, unique design.
The initial notice that Cafe Press sent me was a C&D order, to which I responded to immediately. The "Demand" notice, which prompted this thread, came after the C&D, and also after I had already overhauled my shop in response to the C&D.
What some people do not realize, is that the main issue with my shop was that there were references to the Serenity movie in the product descriptions. This is the part which surprised me. One can feature a design that does not infringe on a copyright... however, if the description refers to the TV show or movie, then it's a violation of intellectual property.
Every design in my shop is/was original, but there were two source designs which allegedly fell into the grey area. I removed those designs. All the rest were absolutely fine, and those are the designs which are still there now. There are designs which incorporate Chinese characters in a creative way. Some of the designs feature the characters for the word "serenity", but there are no references to the movie of that name. And that is perfectly legal.
It was the references and "marketing" of the shop that was the main issue folks. Lesson learned: As to Cafe Press shops, it can be the descriptions, not the images, that will bring the law down on you. So don't refer to the "Serenity" movie.
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