Where Joss blew it

POSTED BY: SimonWho
UPDATED: Thursday, October 26, 2006 01:06
VIEWED: 8374
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ECGORDON

Friday, October 20, 2006 5:42 PM

I know this is going to come across as very condescending, but I can't help but shake my head and wonder about people who can get confused so easily. The opening to "Serenity" (the pilot) is great as is, and so is the opening of "The Train Job." Certainly you must be aware that the deleted scene from "Serenity" with Mal and Zoe among the dead and dying was cut on orders from FOX. What Joss reshot had more of the action they were looking for, it established the war, the fact that Mal was on the losing side, etc. Joss did everything he could to get that pilot aired first, and yet FOX balked and forced him to reinvent the introduction to the 'verse in a one hour show. He did the best he could considering all the restrictions, and to lay the blame at the feet of anyone but the FOX execs is totally ridiculous.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

MRSU

Friday, October 20, 2006 6:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
He did the best he could considering all the restrictions, and to lay the blame at the feet of anyone but the FOX execs is totally ridiculous.

What can I say? Stupid FOX. Yes, now I know that the original opening was changed by request from FOX. But in my eyes the original version of the pilot, the way how Joss & Co envisioned it first, was perfect. The new opening made it weaker, IMHO, and TTJ is still one of my least favorite episodes and way inferior to the pilot in my eyes.
I don't blame Joss for that, I just think the show would have done so much better if FOX execs trusted Joss from the beginning and let him go with the original pilot.

Again, just speaking for myself and DH - we watched TTJ and Bushwacked first (because of the times on DVD) and weren't impressed much and finally desided to give the pilot a try and sit through the somewhat incoherent and longish - sorry, just IMHO - action sequence, because my friends were raving about Firefly. And Serenity finally got me hooked. But I still tend to skip the first scene when I rewatch Serenity, and go and watch deleted scenes in the end.

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Friday, October 20, 2006 6:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by atigdng:

I don't agree there, I personally am NOT a buffy fan, it is lame and cheesy to me, nothing is convincing. And it is definitly not a serious tv series. The ONLY thing I liked about the first season of buffy was angel.

*shaking and sweating* Must... not... flame! Entitled... to... opinion! Must... not... flame!

More graphics and animations available at www.desktophippie.com

WHOISRIVER

Friday, October 20, 2006 8:24 PM

Quote:
:
I know this is going to come across as very condescending, but I can't help but shake my head and wonder about people who can get confused so easily. The opening to "Serenity" (the pilot) is great as is, and so is the opening of "The Train Job."

You're right, it did come across as condescending ;o)

I think the opening to "Serenity" is crap. Sorry, it just is in my world. It's 8 minutes of backstory about characters nobody cares about in a situation nobody cares about right at the beginning of a show on a network which prides itself on delivering shows to people with short attention spans. Like I said, if you're on HBO, they're going to lap that up.

And I can say this as somebody who isn't flaming the show, the fandom or the people who worked on the show for a variety of reasons.

That said, I think the girl in a box thing worked really well, and Kaylee getting shot is a great pilot moment.

FOX didn't just bungle Firefly because they had nothing better to do. They helped bungle it because they had no idea what to *do* with it - after all, it had horses and cowboys in it, and was a serial story arc show, which doesn't fit the FOX programming area (I'm taking the piss of some of FOX's show notes on Firefly there...).

It's a tough one to call. Would I have Joss go back in time and alter Firefly so it would have succeeded on FOX? Actually, no, because their idea of a good show usually isn't mine (although House is totally cool). It wouldn't be the same show.

That said, whilst it's everybodies favourite hobby to bash FOX, here's some factoids that probably aren't widely know:

- The show was originally pitched to FOX as 5 characters.
- It was pitched as a stand aloneish episode show, to avoid the mythology getting messy.
- There was no Blue Sun, hands of blue, etc.

Who asked for changes with those things? FOX network television. Of course, they also botched other things up.

ECGORDON

Friday, October 20, 2006 9:07 PM

No question that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I acknowledge that gossi is as big a fan of the 'verse as any of us, but it really bristles me to hear him say that the opening of Serenity is "crap." IMO, repeat IMO, the deleted scene of Mal and Zoe is in no way less confusing that the opening teaser that aired. That's something that we're just going to have to agree to disagree about.

However, all I intended to do with my two previous posts here was to refute the title of this thread. Joss did NOT blow it, FOX did, and there is nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

CMOTD

Friday, October 20, 2006 9:14 PM

Quote:
- The show was originally pitched to FOX as 5 characters.
- It was pitched as a stand aloneish episode show, to avoid the mythology getting messy.
- There was no Blue Sun, hands of blue, etc.

Fox insisted that the cast be larger, that blue sun be incorporated into the story and that the show have a story arc? It seems to me that newscorp is responsibe for the best parts of the Firefly 'verse.
P.S. Who were the original five characters?

Takes more than combat gear to make a man
Takes more than a license for a gun
Confront your enemies, avoid them when you can
A gentleman will walk but never run

-Sting, An Englishman in New York

SIMONWHO

Friday, October 20, 2006 9:19 PM

Not even Joss? He's admitted he stopped listening to the network and while you can be a lone maverick, it makes things that much harder for you. Plus one of his strengths was he got the chain of command, he did things for the network that he wouldn't done on his own but he seems to have missed the mark in selling the show to the network.

Now you can argue that Fox execs should have recognised what they had but the TV critics didn't, the early reviews were pretty lukewarm and ultimately it never really got the thrust it deserved.

RIVER6213

Friday, October 20, 2006 9:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Just play it as though they're in 1871, with a Northern oaf mocking Mal and co. They argue and fight in just the same way, leading up to the edge of the cliff, though skipping Mal calling for help from Wash. Then "I'm thinking we'll rise again" and suddenly with no advance warning, there's a damn spaceship appearing behind them!

An opening like that for "The Train Job" would have really grabbed my attention. Too bad Joss didn't do it that way.

-River

VETERAN

Friday, October 20, 2006 11:02 PM

I disagree. Train Job was never intended to be the pilot. Fox didn't want to go with Serenity (the Pilot not the movie). If your looking for blame look at Fox. Fox blew it from the start by not running the shows in order, not giving the show a good time slot, interrupting the show for the baseball playoffs, and not giving the show a real chance for people to find it.

There was something special about this show, must be, otherwise we wouldn't still be coming to this board this long after the last episode aired.

WHOISRIVER

Friday, October 20, 2006 11:49 PM

Quote:
I disagree. Train Job was never intended to be the pilot.

It was written *as* the replacement pilot.

Quote:
Fox blew it from the start by not running the shows in order

It was Tim Minear, I believe, who suggested the running order be shifted about.

Quote:
, not giving the show a good time slot, interrupting the show for the baseball playoffs, and not giving the show a real chance for people to find it.

Agree with that.

I don't agree that Joss botched Firefly. At all. Want to be clear on that.

And, at the end of the day, do I think any person on this topic or website is more talented than Joss, beside Joss? No. Sorry, but I think he's enomously talented in what he does. However, would I ever put Joss Whedon near the FOX network again? Uhm, no. And I'm sure Joss wouldn't either.

SimonWho - I've heard Joss doing his impressions of reading the notes FOX were giving him and freaking out in the office, and I'm pretty sure he's publicly admitted he got way cocky in terms of the relationship with the network and who understood TV. That said, he did make concentions and he dealt with the network notes for the shows.

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