Where Joss blew it

POSTED BY: SimonWho
UPDATED: Thursday, October 26, 2006 01:06
VIEWED: 8374
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BRIDGET

Friday, October 20, 2006 6:11 AM

I'm some surprised that anyone would say Joss blew it with Serenity and the Train Job. I was completely prepared not to like Firefly and watch the whole series in one weekend. The first scene of Serenity captivated me and the Train Job is one of my favorite eps.

I think the first scene of Serenity was prefect because it establishes the characters. It is made clear to me, one who would not be quick to like a show about thieves, that these people could've by a turn of fate been heroes.

The Train Job's first scene is a delightful play on the hero made thief by his bold ritual challenging of U Day. Those two scenes made Mal and entirely captivating main character. Changes those scenes and you would've lost me.

(I still can't believe I'm on a Firefly message board.)

"It's my estimation that every man who ever got a statue made of him was one kind of son-bitch or another."

SIMONWHO

Friday, October 20, 2006 7:23 AM

The first scene of Serenity only features Mal and Zoe and takes about 8 minutes to setup the fact that they were on the losing end of a war. The fact that you don't even remember what the real first scene was is definitely suggestive of how impactful it was.

The first scene of The Train Job doesn't suggest Mal or the others are thieves, just that they are independents.

Remember, we're talking about what people think when they see the show for the first time. I am talking about giving a WTF moment - think of all the praise Lost got for it's first scene, which wasn't the crash itself but its aftermath and the brilliantly surprising scene were the guy gets sucked into the jet engine.

Of course we had a similar surprise three years earlier but that came at the end of the episode, not the start. We needed to have a similar level of impact, a WTF? as someone put it.

WHOISRIVER

Friday, October 20, 2006 10:16 AM

Interesting discussion, SimonWho.

I'll reiterate what others have said and say it's a bit of an over simplification to entirely blame Joss for things, as the network does share the responsibility. However, there is also a strong argument to be made that the reason FOX didn't get behind the show was because they didn't think it could work, let alone would work, at finding an audience.

I was at a shindig a few months ago with somebody who used to work in the TV industry, and they said if they had been handed 'Serenity' (the episode) as a pilot to consider for pickup, they wouldn't have picked it up. Which, coming from a Firefly fan, is interesting.

When your ass is on the line in a TV company, delivering a creatively good TV show which will have a limited audience is a gamble. Especially when you consider Firefly's pilot cost $8.9m to shoot (source: Entertainment Weekly), which at the time was the highest amount of money a pilot had cost. (Lost overtook it).

If it had been on a network more accepting of serial shows - eg HBO or Showtime - I think it would have had much more of a chance of finding viewers prepared to invest time in the show. It was on FOX. FOX's #1 show is American Idol. FOX's model show at the time was Fastlane.

Joss is right, it was a really poor match between show and network, but -- and I think this is the thing Joss has learned -- you have to take into account the network in a big way, or you get cancelled.

--gossi

MRBEN

Friday, October 20, 2006 10:32 AM

I think we also need to bear in mind everything that Joss needed to do in this "first" episode. Instead of getting a full 90-minute pilot, he's got 45 minutes to play with. He needs to introduce the world, and all the characters, and quickly. 'Fooling' the viewer would've taken additional time, and probably would've instilled confusion over clarity, for the sake of a gimmick.

Serenity (the pilot, not the film) is a much more gentle introduction to the 'verse. We gradually get the space/western theme introduced over time. The opening scene gives us both the impact of action, but also a great introduction to 2 of the characters.

mrben

"Carpe Aptenodytes"
http://www.jedimoose.org

BROWNCOAT1

Friday, October 20, 2006 10:46 AM

I agree with Gossi to a point. I think Fox bears the responsibility for the failure of the show. Fox simply was not a good fit for Firefly, but unfortunately Joss was under contract to them at the time, so Fox got our show. Joss and the cast have all said that Fox execs "did not get the show" and I think that is the biggest problem Joss faced from the outset. Add to this their decision to toss the actual pilot "Serenity" and to make Joss write another.

"The Train Job" started out well, the scene in the bar with the purplebelly kind of set the tone for the show & our crew: they live on the fringe, they lost the War, there is a lot of resentment on both sides, and our crew is outnumbered. Mal flying through the hologram window was a great touch in my opinion. As Simonwho pointed out, one could watch the opening scene of Firefly and think that we are in some old west town, but Mal's passing through a hologram window showed the audience that not everything was as it appeared.

I also agree w/ Gossi that another network would have been a better fit for Firefly. Fox can't get past their formulatic so called "reality" shows, so a cutting edge show like Firefly never stood a chance. I have always believed that had Firefly been on say Showtime or even Sci Fi, networks that would understand a sci fi show & leave Joss to do what he does best, then Firefly would be on today.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

WINDSTRUCK

Friday, October 20, 2006 2:15 PM

If there was a TV project that Joss should do right now, it is Heroes.

He should write and direct an episode or two. Jeph Loeb is there.

It would be so much fun seeing him playing with the Japanese teleporter Hiro, and more comic book references in a dialogue would be awesome!

OR AM I OFF TOPIC?

MYCROFTXXX

Friday, October 20, 2006 4:20 PM

In my opinion, it would not have mattered what broadcast network Firefly would have appeared on. At the time the show was introduced, all three (or five if you count UPN, WBN) were looking for quick and cheap shows they could set up and pull at a moment's notice based on instant viwer polls. Reality TV was at its peak (cheapest kinda show to produce BTW) and some Hollywood pundits were predicting the death of the sitcom. Things haven't chaned much but, according to the same pundits the Reality TV bubble may be on the decline (I sure as heck hope so) and sitcoms are making a comeback. Of course, we still haven't run the course of courtroom dramas yet but give that time too.

Now, name me ONE major broadcast network that's been able to produce a sustainable true Sci-Fi show (space ships required) from the start? As far as I can recall NONE. Star Trek doesn't count because it was the fans that brought it back from the edge of extinction, not the network. I think it is simply a genre they don't know how to handle. This is too bad because I think today's teens EXPECT the human race to be in space "real soon now" because they were born well after Man had entered space and were weaned on Sci-Fi with Star Wars.

The problem is, the folks making the financial decisions at the networks weren't born in the post-moon landing/Star Wars age and thus their view of the world is skewed. Vampires they understand as they grew up with Bella Lugosi and the like but true Sci-fi?, closest they came to were those horrible B-movies from the 50s (George Pal movies and a few other classics excepted.)

Let's hope that some on-the-rise agressive TV executive born in this post-space age finally makes it to a position where they can make the case for the relevance of Sci-Fi for today's viewing public. God knows we are ready.

And, BTW, I am 50 years old but love Sci-Fi in all its forms so I don't necessarily fit the typical teens to 20s demographic but I definitely have the disposable income these same executives strive for in their search for sponsors.

--

Given a choice between the earth-that-is and the 'verse-that-will-be I'll take the latter.

宁静

CHRISTHECYNIC

Friday, October 20, 2006 5:03 PM

I have to agree with the others who said that isn't what you want to go for unless the attitude you want to provoke is, "What the fuck?"

I've not seen the first episode of Buffy but what you describes sounds like it was a good opening which fit the show. However the reason I think it sounds good is that it told you exactly where you were and what was going on while being interesting.

Consider what you suggested for the Train Job, it fails to communicate where you are and actively tries to make that unclear. In fact it implies that it is just another completely unoriginal anachronism thing. (Seriously though, why do people think it is so much fun to have Conquistadors fighting against the laser armed natives, Confederates with an air force and Nazis with space travel? Hasn't it all been done enough already?)

It doesn't tell you what is going on, again it tries to screw with your sense of what was going on.

Finally, it might be interesting but that's not a terribly compelling reason to follow something that is obviously going out of its way to make no sense.

If it had begun that way I sure as hell wouldn't have watched.

-

Also, if it did start like that and they tried to retain any sense of continuity of setting that would mean that either it would have to look like 1871 most of the places they went or there would need to be some convoluted explanation as to what made that place special. "So you got into a fight at the reenactment town? We can't take you anywhere."

MAL4PREZ

Friday, October 20, 2006 5:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bridget:
(I still can't believe I'm on a Firefly message board.)

Get used to it! I've been there too, and I tell you - the addiction doesn't go away!

Simonwho - Thinking there's any little thing that Joss could have adjusted to make this show work is a path to *madness*! It was poorly advertised and presented, end of story. I'm a total Joss fan and love sci-fi, and yet I never even heard of Firefly until the week before Serenity opened.

Fox sucks. That's all there is to it.

to fox!!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

MRSU

Friday, October 20, 2006 5:27 PM

I must confess that I don't like the opening of Serenity while the pilot as a whole is one of my favorite episodes. The opening spends too much time on incoherent war action with people we don't yet care about or know who they are. 8 minutes, isn't it? That's too long.

I first watched Firefly on rented DVDs, and I was so confused by the war action I tried restarting the episode couple of times, as I thought I was stumbling on this scene by mistake. Finally DH and me desided to watch Train Job as it was first chronologically - how stupid of us! We were spoiled for "Evil Simon", for "Girl in the box", for "Kaylee's dead" - for everything. :(. But we were that thrown off by the opening of Serenity.

But then I watched 3 deleted scenes from Serenity on DVD-4. It would make much better pilot, IMHO, if those scenes were used instead of 8-min opening. The 1st scene establishes the same 2 characters, the fact they they lost a war, and were betrayed by their own side, in about 1 minute, I think. And in a much more coherent way. Then we go and learn more about the characters and then we learn the rest of the story, via Zoe's retelling, when we really care about them and can understand why it's relevant. Plus as an added bonus it puts a closure on Mal & Simon row - Simon understands why he got punched. It just flows better that way.

Just IMHO, but for what it's worth - if I saw Serenity on TV I would switch the channel somewhere during those 8 minutes. It's just too long to sit through when you don't have a clue what's going on and who are those people.

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