The Fascist Ideology of Star Trek

Good to see you back Cavalier.

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Originally posted by Cavalier:
It is a good idea and is a reason for having export restrictions on munitions. But the Prime Directive also bans any form of contact until the species is warp-capable. Including such ideas as the germ theory of disease, the printing press, and writing. And the milestone of warpdrive has nothing to do with culture, social sophistication etc – we know that from looking at the Klingons, Cardassians etc

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I was using Nuclear weapons as an extreme example of perversion of technology.

The Milestone of warp drive shows that the culture is the one going out and deciding to meet with other races if they so exist, rather than having that intervention thrust upon them. Its a fundamental difference.

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Note the TNG episode “Who watches the Watchers”, where it is a disaster when members of a pre-warp race briefly see to people observing them.

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That supports my point well.

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At Trafalger Nelsons flagship was the 102 gun Victory. I believe she was the most powerful ship in the British fleet (Admirals led their fleets into battle literally, so she must have been one of the most powerful). The most powerful ship in the Allies fleet was the 136 gun Santissima Trinidad. I gather the French Navy also had ships in the 120 gun range. But no one would have said that Victory was built primarily to explore, just because she was slightly smaller than the most powerful ships in the other major navies..

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This isn't equivalent. The HMS Victory has 104 guns (I say has because she's still technically in service with the Royal Navy) where as the largest ship at Trafalgar, and the ship with the most guns in the world at the time was the Spanish Santísima Trinidad with 136. There were two other Spanish ships, the Santa Anna and the Príncipe de Asturias with ~112 guns. But despite their on paper superiority British sailors were better trained and better drilled so could fire more rounds per minute. Thus the HMS Victory in reality out gunned even the Santísima Trinidad.

The implication I was arguing against was that Starfleet built the most powerful warships, this is simply not the case. The other major powers put emphasis on fire power, Starfleet does not.

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Compare this with the Endeavour, Beagle, Challenger which certainly were exploratory ships,

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They weren't exploratory ships, they were smaller warships. A purpose built exploratory ship would be a vessel like HMS Dolphin, a 24 gun Frigate and one of the first vessels to be outfitted with copper sheathing. A ship that lead skirmishes against the French and was the second ship to be outfitted with armour.

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The reason Jake gives for not having money is not “I am young”, but “I am human. We don’t have any money”.

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doesn't argue against "I can't bid in an auction if they don't accept the currency I carry. I have to exchange it, which in the above episode is exactly what Jake does (I was actually going to bring that episode up myself, thanks). He trades what he does have to get Latinum so that he can bid in the auction. I don't see how that's fundamentally different to going to a Bureau de Change.".

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Money is useful only for trade and accounting, so if Federation citizens have no money it seems safe to conclude that they rarely engage in trade, with each other or anyone else.

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So where do they get all those antiques and things in their quarters. Where do they get things like real alcohol? Steal it?

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The UK had rather unhappy relations with the US and France throughout the 19th century, but the cold wars stayed cold.

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The UK and France went to war a number of times over the 19th century. Both the Battle of Trafalgar and the battle of Waterloo were fought in the 1800s. Following these France was mired in to much internal political strife to fight with anyone else. Likewise there were a number of armed confrontations between the UK and the US but both nations were to busy fighting other people to go

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Originally posted by Cavalier:
And the milestone of warpdrive has nothing to do with culture, social sophistication etc – we know that from looking at the Klingons, Cardassians etc

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Actually, the Klingons didn't invent warp drive, they got it from the Hur'q, a warp-capable race who conquered the primitive Klingons and bit off more than they could chew (the Hur'q are extinct now, and the Klingons rule an interstellar Empire with their back-engineered technology). That's why Klingon culture is so odd; they should be just inventing gunpowder about now, but instead they have starships, disruptors, and cloaking devices --the Klingons are an example of what happens when you break the Prime Directive.

There's also evidence that the Hebitians (before they called themselves Cardassians) got their warp drive from the ancient Bajorans. They seem to have had warp technology in the Hebitian age (the Hebitians were artistic, intellectual, and compassionate, much like the modern Bajorans), and there's evidence that Hebitia and Bajor were allies (and even shared the same religion --the Oralian Way seems linked to the Bajoran Prophets), before Hebitia's resources ran out and the "Cardassian Movement" took over. The Hebitian culture collapsed, and the revolution reformed the newly-named "Cardassia" into a military dictatorship, aimed at securing needed recources however they could (i.e., through conquest).

(In Enterprise, a lot of alien writing systems seemed to resemble ancient Bajoran [though Hoshi obviously wouldn't recognize this, I'm going by my own graphic design training --it looks like the Enterprise graphic designers borrowed stuff from DS9 surplus], perhaps implying that cultures in this area of the quadrant were "seeded" by ancient Bajoran starfarers, who would've needed some form of warp drive. . .)
*wanders off on tangent*

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Originally posted by Cybersnark:
(In Enterprise, a lot of alien writing systems seemed to resemble ancient Bajoran [though Hoshi obviously wouldn't recognize this, I'm going by my own graphic design training --it looks like the Enterprise graphic designers borrowed stuff from DS9 surplus], perhaps implying that cultures in this area of the quadrant were "seeded" by ancient Bajoran starfarers, who would've needed some form of warp drive. . .)
*wanders off on tangent*

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Didn't the ancient Bajorans use those weird solar sailing ships? That's actually something I could never get my head around, they weren't space age technology, no computers and the sails were controlled by hand winches. So great a 19th century space ship, but how did they get them in to orbit in the first place?

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by Cavalier:
I think the important point is really Jakes:

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There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.

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Star Trek tends to see virtue as loyalty to a higher collective. People are supposed to make life better for their people: humanity, bajorans, romulans etc. The point is not to make people free, but to make them think the right way.

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This is something most decent people feel intuitively isn't it? I mean bettering themselves? Making life better for future generations? Sounds more like the culture has shifted the emphasis from one basic instinct to another.

In fact it could be argued this is what Capitalists believe, they just go about it in a round about way.

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I’d say that in most systems people move very directly towards bettering themselves.

Its just that in Capitalism it is difficult to better yourself without also bettering your business partners, customers etc. Other systems tend to be based on a logical fallacy, e.g.

1) Socialism requires everyone to be altruistic.
2) Therefore, under socialism, everyone will be altruistic
3) Therefore, under socialism, everything will be great

No one seemed to wonder what would happen if the government bureaucrats did not become altruistic under Socialism. (Not the only problem with Socialism, but certainly a serious one.)

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From Memory Alpha:

It appears that the Federation economy is built on a model that is neither capitalist or socialist, but something akin to communist model, however precise information is very scarce. The descriptions given by various Federation citizens are as follows:
 Kirk told Spock about 20th century Earth: "They're still using money. We need to get some." Later on, while Kirk was having dinner with Gillian Taylor and was unable to pay in the restaurant, Gillian asked sarcastically, "Don't tell me they don't use money in the 23rd century," and Kirk told her "Well, we don't." (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home)
 Picard tries to explain to Ralph Offenhouse from the 20th century that there would be no need for his law firm any longer: "A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of 'things'. We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions." (TNG: "The Neutral Zone")
 When Lily Sloane asked how much the Enterprise-E cost to build, Picard tells her "The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century... The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." (Star Trek: First Contact)
 When Nog suggests that Jake should bid for a baseball card in an auction, Jake says "I'm Human, I don't have any money." Nog replies "It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement." Jake says "Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." Nog then replies "What does that mean?" Jake responds "It means we don't need money!" (DS9: "In the Cards")
 Jake: "(big smile) I sold my first book today. Quark: "Really? How much did you get for it? Jake: "It's just a figure of speech. The Federation News Service is going to publish a book of my stories about life on the station under Dominion rule. But they're not paying me." (DS9: "You Are Cordially Invited...")
 Tom Paris says about the significance of Fort Knox: "When the New World Economy took shape in the late 22nd century and money went the way of the dinosaur, Fort Knox was turned into a museum." (VOY: "Dark Frontier")

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The point is that if you ask how the Federation economy works, the first thing you get is a lecture on how altruistic everyone in the Federation is.

For comparison, if you had to explain in a few sentences how capitalism worked to a m

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Originally posted by Cybersnark:

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Originally posted by Cavalier:
And the milestone of warpdrive has nothing to do with culture, social sophistication etc – we know that from looking at the Klingons, Cardassians etc

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Actually, the Klingons didn't invent warp drive, they got it from the Hur'q, a warp-capable race who conquered the primitive Klingons and bit off more than they could chew (the Hur'q are extinct now, and the Klingons rule an interstellar Empire with their back-engineered technology). That's why Klingon culture is so odd; they should be just inventing gunpowder about now, but instead they have starships, disruptors, and cloaking devices --the Klingons are an example of what happens when you break the Prime Directive.

There's also evidence that the Hebitians (before they called themselves Cardassians) got their warp drive from the ancient Bajorans.

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I’m beginning to wonder if anyone but Earth invented warpdrive on their own. If the Vulcans did, what does that say about the Romulans?

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Originally posted by Cavalier:
1) Socialism requires everyone to be altruistic.
2) Therefore, under socialism, everyone will be altruistic
3) Therefore, under socialism, everything will be great

No one seemed to wonder what would happen if the government bureaucrats did not become altruistic under Socialism. (Not the only problem with Socialism, but certainly a serious one.)

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Depends what sort of socialism your talking about. Now current system is perfect though, capitalism collapses in to corporatism, as I'd say it has done or is in the process of doing so in the US.

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It is hard not to conclude that the Federation is much more dependent on people thinking the right way than is our own society.

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Because we're living in our culture and it's much harder to see you're own indoctrination than it is too see others.

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After all, if everyone on Earth turned into a perfect altruist, it would cause no problems for General Electric, or the people who sell each other things on eBay. Instead of seeing ads which told you how much better off you would be if you bought the advertised product, you would see ads which told you how much better off everyone else would be if you bought the advertised product. Advertisers might well prefer such a world – it would be harder for customers to tell if the product really had made everyone better off (on average), than if it had made the customer better off.

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Ahh but of course it would. In order to make a profit someone else has to make a loss, there's not infinite money, ergo. If we were altruistic the idea of making profit would be abhorrent, as it is by its very nature succeeding on others failure. Making profit is the underpinning nature of modern capitalism.

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(This is why it is generally a mistake to say that Big Giant Firms want us all to want Evil Thing X: they really do not care what anyone wants, as long as they can figure out some way of selling it to him. Even if they could control our minds, they would have no incentive to.)

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Of course there's an incentive. If you can tell the customer what they want rather than react to it you're in for making much more profit. Telling people what they want would be the perfect situation for a corporation.

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If advertising was as effective as all that, New Coke and the Ford Edsel would have been a great success, children could be persuaded to eat their vegetables by an ad campaign, no one in the English speaking world would still be smoking, and the War on Drugs would be a complete success.

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Which completely ignores several factors:
Their competitors are also marketing and advertising. New Coke fails because Old Coke has better advertising both because it has more money and is better established, branding and word of mouth are both forms of advertising. There is as much in our culture discouraging kids from eating vegetables as encouraging, and I mean that. Look at films and literature, listen to children in the playground, stack that against under funded occasional government ads that say "you should eat vegetables you know" and parents that often just stuff McDonald's down their kids throat to shut them up. Cultural conditioning to hate vegetables starts at a young age and for many continues in to adult life. My Father is the perfect example, he coincidently indoctrinated me against vegetables by his own refusal to eat them. Bizarrely enough part of my rebellious stage was to start liking vegetables, go figure.

Smoking, again our culture has a big plus for smoking that is only NOW beginning to change. I'll remind you that smoking is on the decrease, as culture has changed and advertising less prevalent. I'll also remind you that people won't just stop smoking after they have started, Nicotines addictive. The same can be said of drug taking, it's an accepted part of our culture, albeit underground, it's almost expected that teenagers will try it.

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The idea that advertising is very powerful seems to be the only thing that advertisin

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