Simon & River Deleted Scene

POSTED BY: Calhoun
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 3, 2004 19:57
VIEWED: 5644
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AURAPTOR

Monday, February 2, 2004 8:05 PM

Simon is a odd contradiction. He's *rich, intelligent and driven, yet he so often comes across as some timid geek. (Think George McFly from Back to the Future) The only real time I've seen him ACT like a doctor is when they were on Ariel and he saved the life of that patient in the hallway. Granted, this could be due to the fact that his parents disowned him, he is suddenly out on his own, a fugitive on the run, and having to deal w/ a life " outside". Where is he going,what about his parents, his career, how will he earn a living while on the run from the Alliance, what to do about River..

Which brings me to the point - about River. When Simon told Book that she was "..really crazy ", I think he was still shocked and embarrassed over her "where did THAT come from?" suggestion that they get married. Stunned that she had said it, not sure what game she was playing, HOPING she was playing around ,and then having to explain to Book....all at the same time. See, Simon is a contradiction in some ways. He's a doctor - a brilliant one - who is trained to think quickly on his feet, but when it comes to personal relationsihps .... he's kinda a doofus...

*rich - in that he comes from a well to do family and he likely pulled in a decent salary before he decided to liberate River and become a member of the top 10 most wanted list.

SHAMBLEAU

Monday, February 2, 2004 8:21 PM

People on other boards have noted the scene where River fed Simon the hodgeberries by hand, in "Safe", as having incestuous undertones. On TWOP, they call it CSI, for crazy space incest.

Again, I don't think it shows anything other than River having boundary problems because of her experiences. Simon is her brother, but he's also her hero and the only one on board who's affectionate with her, with the possible exception of Inara (when these events take place, she and Kaylee haven't bonded yet). It's also probable that River's parents were aloof with her, so that Simon is literally the only person she has. She sent the coded letter to him, after all, not her parents.

Add that emotional context to the way River shifts from lucidity to creepifying, dissociated logic to the childish state that people have mentioned above and you've got an explanation for the disturbing incest vibes that doesn't require any actual incestuous feelings.

shambleau

FLAMETREE

Tuesday, February 3, 2004 8:02 AM

The scene was hi-larious.

I thought the writers where having some fun because it a scene that obviously should exist. ( Does no one else think Simon's devotion to River is a bit over the top? )

By the by who knows how upper class core family feel about these relationships? The Egyptian royal families certainly had no quarms.

However I can't see it being broadcast on american tv. Still the look on his face!

VERITAS

Tuesday, February 3, 2004 8:42 AM

First off, loved that scene. I was laughing pretty hard.

As to Simon saying that River was 'really crazy,' it could possibly have been a sibling thing. In a family, one gets a certain amount of leeway on what you can say. For example, Simon called River a dummy, and that wasn't intended to be hurtful. It was just harmless teasing.

"What'd you all order a dead guy for?"

CALHOUN

Tuesday, February 3, 2004 9:12 AM

Auraptor,

"Where did that come from" is exactly the way I felt when I watched that scene.

STATIC

Tuesday, February 3, 2004 7:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by flametree:
The scene was hi-larious.

( Does no one else think Simon's devotion to River is a bit over the top? )

I have a younger sister and she and I are COMPLETELY devoted to each other, and she's not even a half-lunatic victim of horrible corporate experiments!

Of course. . .she DOES teach in the public school system, so I suppose that counts.

Some siblings are very devoted and affectionate, others aren't. I've learned through the process of pursuing my Master's in Ab. Psych, as well as working with middle-school kids that it sometimes (only sometimes) depends upon how the kids are raised.

This is all pure speculation, but I'd be willing to bet that the Tam kids didn't have a whole lot of friends their age outside of school, and the whole conversation about 'dedicated sourceboxes' and such suggested that they MIGHT have been involved in a home study program or a very exclusive private school. Such environments are not unhealthy at all. . .but lend to VERY close sibling bonds. Those of us who grew up without siblings, or with siblings, yet also a very active social environment might not be able to easily accept seeing siblings that close.

Another VERY good example of this sort of development is the Sci-Fi miniseries "Children of Dune". . .watch that on DVD if you can. . .you can see how close the children are. Not unhealthy. . .not unusual. . .just not the same as what alot of us grow up with.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

CAPTAINTIGHTPANTS

Tuesday, February 3, 2004 7:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Static:
Quote:
Originally posted by flametree:
The scene was hi-larious.

( Does no one else think Simon's devotion to River is a bit over the top? )

I have a younger sister and she and I are COMPLETELY devoted to each other, and she's not even a half-lunatic victim of horrible corporate experiments!

Of course. . .she DOES teach in the public school system, so I suppose that counts....

ROFLMAO! That's good!

Quote:
Some siblings are very devoted and affectionate, others aren't. I've learned through the process of pursuing my Master's in Ab. Psych, as well as working with middle-school kids that it sometimes (only sometimes) depends upon how the kids are raised. ...

I agree with you there, Static. As a product of a myriad of family situations as a child and then raising several children of my own, I can attest to that. Everyone has different methods of dealing with their environment. Even what the majority see as "normal" has stresses that must be dealt with and people learn to cope is SOO many different ways. How wonderful that these two have each other to love. I didn't at all get incestuous vibes from those scenes. River acts like a young person that has moments of childish regression. It's perfectly normal for children, both boys and girls, to express a desire to marry and have kids with their parents and other siblings. It's how they learn about relationships and people outside of themselves.

And I didn't get even a HINT of this kind of overtone from the scenes in Serenity where she's naked and Simon's holding her. And neither do the people (Mal and the rest) who are witnessing this or you can be certain they would have done something about it. And with Book's obvious code of moral behavior from his "special Hell" speech to Mal, he would have done some serious counseling on it, if he thought there was anything of the sort going on during that scene.

Quote:
This is all pure speculation, but I'd be willing to bet that the Tam kids didn't have a whole lot of friends their age outside of school, and the whole conversation about 'dedicated sourceboxes' and such suggested that they MIGHT have been involved in a home study program or a very exclusive private school. Such environments are not unhealthy at all. . .but lend to VERY close sibling bonds. Those of us who grew up without siblings, or with siblings, yet also a very active social environment might not be able to easily accept seeing siblings that close.

Another VERY good example of this sort of development is the Sci-Fi miniseries "Children of Dune". . .watch that on DVD if you can. . .you can see how close the children are. Not unhealthy. . .not unusual. . .just not the same as what alot of us grow up with.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

The home/exclusive schooling and River being pushed aside for her brother are very apparent, albeit specualtive, in the episode where we see them as children and their father talking about the "dedicated source". Her brother catches the undercurrent of their father's indifference to River and looks at her to see if it bothers her and tries to protect her feelings. That is very normal for the oldest sibling to do. And the bond obviously grows from there. He's protective and she desparately needs someone's help and protection. She knows that she can't turn to her parents. It's obvious to her from childhood that they aren't there for her.

Would their devotion seem so suspect if she were the older sibling and the one doing the protecting? Then might not her behavior be seen as "mothering or nurturing"? His behavior is no different.

Thought incest happens in all types of families, it isn't the norm or what to expect between two loving people.

You're gonna come with us...

CAPTAINTIGHTPANTS

Tuesday, February 3, 2004 7:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kozure:
Like many of River's other supposedly "crazy" moments, her play-acting marriage can also be interpreted to signify that she sees through Saffron's faux-marriage and is trying to draw attention to the ridiculousness (or true nature, one may also say) of the situation.

She specifically chooses to steal a pillow from Saffron's room (instead of her own or a more nearby dorm room) and of course pegs Saffron for exactly what she is... a thief. Not in the immediate sense of stealing the food, but in the larger (and true) role of hijacker.

In re-watching River's scenes, one can usually attribute a specific reason for her apparent insanity, from stripping off Blue Sun labels on food tins to slashing the Blue Sun logo on Jayne's shirt.

Not to say all of her actions have some deep inner meaning but quite a few of them do.

Kozure the Kamikaze Highlander

Proud Citizen of Canada-That-Was

Hey, I didn't catch that she slashes Jayne's Blue Sun shirt or that the labels she rips off are Blue Sun labels! WOW! Shiny catch there, Koz!

And I'm with you on the significance of River's actions. (Even if I wasn't swift enough to catch some of them!

) That part about taking apart the bed just made-up for Saffron, calling her a thief (not at all about the food), in "Bushwhacked" her waking up screaming and the comment about "Ghosts" when everyone is on the bridge (do they call it that? Can't remember.

) discussing theories about what's going on... she's one intuitive cookie.

You're gonna come with us...

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