General Discussions
The Fascist Ideology of Star Trek
POSTED BY: citizen
UPDATED: Sunday, June 7, 2026 16:12
VIEWED: 22000
PAGE 10 of 14
Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:13 AM
Quote:At least I'm trying to debate rather than throw around unqualified insults Finn.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Citizen: You’re whole argument lacks any substance because you are not providing any kind of valid point to support your claim. Instead you are simply defining the issue to suit what you want it to be. You have defined Starfleet not to be a military, because you think, evidently, that if you claim that it is not a military that there will be no argument about whether Star Trek is militarist. You justify such a definition on the claim that any ONE characteristic of a military cannot be used to define something as a military. This is a purely duplicitous and manipulative argument; because Starfleet does not represent only one characteristic of a military, but many and in fact, all in most cases. It’s a pretty pointless argument, because even if I was to accept it, it is self-defeating. As I’ve already pointed out, twice, such a definition essentially requires Star Trek to be militarist.
I already said I haven't made up my mind, that's why I'm arguing against the opposition, and every time I bring up a point rather than say from the beginning "it's not that it shows military aspects which non military organisations sometimes do, it's that it shows all these aspects" we could move on. No instead you prefer to say I have no argument and I'm engaging in Orwellian DoubleThink. Why not just come out and call me a stupid fascist if that's what you think?
You state that these are military aspects in such away that you imply that any organisation that shows these aspects MUST be a military. Which is why I've been arguing that point, because you are wrong there. You can have a military command structure and not be a military, you can have guns and not be a military. If you had said "it's not that it shows military aspects which non military organisations sometimes do, it's that it shows all these aspects" earlier we could have moved away from whether specific aspects proved it was a military, but it seems you prefer to argue against me rather than for your argument.
I'm trying to make up my mind because when I watched the show I didn't see the big military empire ya'll obviously did, and I wasn't aware that made me stupid or a fascist. So far I'm moving more to the side of Starfleet being more like the TA than the army, or something halfway between standing military and militia. Why because many of the points you and others bring up are complete wrong and not borne out by the show.
I think you can see anything as militaristic if you want to, which you obviously do here, but since your argument hinges on telling me to shut up in not so many words your argument ends up empty. If I so wanted I think I could make a case for Serenity being Mal's attempt to create a guerilla military.
Quote:The East India Company had a standing army but it wasn't a standing army. So is the East India company The Federation or Starfleet?
Originally posted by Cavalier
Second – there is no doubt that the East India Company was formed to trade peacefully with the Far East. They still managed to find time to conquer a quarter of mankind. You can argue that their army was a militia if you like but really...
Quote:Why is a military commander in direct control over a civilian dock workers union? Isn't that militarism? Why is
The B5 commander deals with Earthforce superiors, a Senate oversight committee, a dockworkers union (who strike in one episode), a television news channel (ISN), visiting bigwigs from Earthforce Intelligence, PsiCorps etc, and so on. One characters wife worked for a private exploration company, another worked was an independent prospector and so on. An alien ambassador was explicitly surprised to discover the concept of an independent press, and used it to keep tabs on what her superiors back home were not telling her. She had to be warned that a TV interview might be hostile, and that there was nothing the Earth Alliance government could do about it.
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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:32 PM
Quote:I don’t generally mince words, if I thought that I would say it. Don’t start with the whining now, okay? This is an interesting discussion and no one wants to listen to people accuse others of distorting their arguments and calling them stupid.
Originally posted by citizen:
Why not just come out and call me a stupid fascist if that's what you think?
And here’s another shocker for you, no one disagree that any one characteristic of a military identified in something doesn’t necessarily make that something a military. The problem is that it is not only one characteristic, as you routinely imply. I’ve listed many, and so have other people. If you want to believe Starfleet is not a military go right ahead, I don’t think anyone is stopping you, but I don’t think many others will agree with that assessment, not based on the very limited support that you’ve provided. You need to clarify your arguments and provide some substantive reason for people to agree with you or we need to move on to something that can be clarified and discussed.
You could start by answering Cavalier’s questions concerning how you are defining military and civilian. The TA is a military, not a militia. Like the US National Guard/Army Reserves it is a part of the standing military, just not as active. But I’m hard pressed to see Starfleet as even being something like the US Navy Reserves, since reserve forces rarely go on five year missions without the active military.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 7:37 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I'm trying to make up my mind because when I watched the show I didn't see the big military empire ya'll obviously did,
Not everyone has claimed to see a “big military empire”. Most posters have simply argued that as Starfleet possesses every obvious characteristic of a military organisation, including a de facto monopoly on the heaviest weapons within the Federation, we should treat it as a military organisation.
Sweden has a military, but it is not an empire.
I have argued that Starfleet is the only apparent source of power within the Federation. If you did not see that I am not really surprised, as I think it unlikely the shows creators saw it either.
I suspect that they wanted to depict the Federation as a utopian “world without sin”. Such a world is probably impossible, and certainly unimaginable, so what we are shown in practice is the Federations armed forces, and not much else. Everything else just fades off into a featureless mist.
So why do people think that there is something nice inside this mist? Only because we see superficial indications to that effect. TV shows have conventions and markers to tell viewers where things are and who the good guys are. London has a landmark shot of Big Ben or a big red bus, New York has the Statue of Liberty, and these scene setters are always shown, even when the characters go nowhere near them. The bad guys wear helmets or have inhuman looking faces, so you cannot read their expression. The good guys have easily visible expressions, and so on.
Starfleet has all the “nice people” markers. They never wear black, would rather be shot than wear armour, and engage in endless debates about the Prime Directive. Superficially, it looks really nice.
Its only when you try looking into the details of how the Federation actually works that you can see problems.
The only form of organisation we ever see, within the Federation, is Starfleet. DS9 is, supposedly, one of the most important ports in the Alpha Quadrant. The link between the Alpha and Gamma quadrants. So who is using it? Every sizeable ship we see is a Starfleet vessel, or comes from one of the other powers. Apparently, individual Federation citizens are reluctant to trade with the outside world. Or discouraged from doing so.
We are told that a character is a reporter, but no one ever seems to read the paper or watch the news. There is a “President”, but no evidence of elections. In fact, since elections imply disagreement and conflict over who the next leader should be, and officially there is no conflict within the Federation, there is reason to believe that no election ever takes place.
You could argue, I suppose, that as the shows creators intended us to think of the Federation as some form of Utopia, we should think of it that way. But what we have been shown of the Federation, looks more like a centrally planned command economy (money has been abolished, claimed Picard in ST:First Contact), dominated by its military. The fact that the military uniforms are never all-black, and that the federation blockades primitive worlds (the Prime Directive) is supposed to convince us that the Federation really is wonderful.
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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 7:57 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The TA is a military, not a militia.
Take it up with Cavalier's dictionary:
Quote:Is exactly what the TA is. But if you want to believe that everyone who ever touches a gun is in the military who am I to dissuade you.
Originally posted by Cavalier:
militia [mi-lish-uh]
–noun
1. a body of citizens enrolled for military service, and called out periodically for drill but serving full time only in emergencies.
If Starfleet is a military it is completely unlike any military today. The main job of militaries today is defence of their parent nation. Starfleets main job is Scientific and Exploration, Defence of the Federation is a secondary role. I'm finding it hard to see Starfleet as a military, at least as a military as we understand it, since militaries today don't spend most of their time exploring the Amazon or trying to find the cure for cancer.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 8:43 PM
Quote:Yeah but the Federation can really be called an empire, though one that gained it's size through diplomacy and voluntary membership rather than conflict. So if it's militaristic and all military then it's got to be a big military empire.
Originally posted by Cavalier:
Not everyone has claimed to see a “big military empire”. Most posters have simply argued that as Starfleet possesses every obvious characteristic of a military organisation, including a de facto monopoly on the heaviest weapons within the Federation, we should treat it as a military organisation.
Sweden has a military, but it is not an empire.
Which begs a further question, how come the Federations let people decide to be members? If they want a planet just take it with that big mobilised militaristic culture of theirs.
Quote:Yeah, I don't see it. There's many reasons to see sources of power outside Starfleet.
I have argued that Starfleet is the only apparent source of power within the Federation. If you did not see that I am not really surprised, as I think it unlikely the shows creators saw it either.
Quote:Actually elections are mentioned. In DS9 it's mentioned that Bajor would have to elect Federation Council members if it joined the Federation.
There is a “President”, but no evidence of elections. In fact, since elections imply disagreement and conflict over who the next leader should be, and officially there is no conflict within the Federation, there is reason to believe that no election ever takes place.
I believe elections are discussed in a number of the novels, but by virtue of elections being mentioned in the show I think we can take it as writ that the Federation is a democracy.
Quote:DS9 is a Bajoran station, not Federation. It's outside of Federation space so it's not THAT surprising that we wouldn't see much in the way of civilian Federation traffic. Also one of the reoccurring side characters was a captain of a trading ship, there are numerous examples of Federation citizen's trading with other powers.
The only form of organisation we ever see, within the Federation, is Starfleet. DS9 is, supposedly, one of the most important ports in the Alpha Quadrant. The link between the Alpha and Gamma quadrants. So who is using it? Every sizeable ship we see is a Starfleet vessel, or comes from one of the other powers. Apparently, individual Federation citizens are reluctant to trade with the outside world. Or discouraged from doing so.
Quote:Not true, we don't see news channels, which would be the only way of expressly getting over the idea of an independent news service, because apparently people don't like watching TV and it's disappeared. I imagine it has something to do with holodecks
We are told that a character is a reporter, but no one ever seems to read the paper or watch the news.
.Quote:When did the Federation ever 'blockade' a primitive world?
federation blockades primitive worlds (the Prime Directive) is supposed to convince us that the Federation really is wonderful.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 8:51 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The TA is a military, not a militia.
Take it up with Cavalier's dictionary:Quote:Is exactly what the TA is. But if you want to believe that everyone who ever touches a gun is in the military who am I to dissuade you.
Originally posted by Cavalier:
militia [mi-lish-uh]
–noun
1. a body of citizens enrolled for military service, and called out periodically for drill but serving full time only in emergencies.
If people in the TA are "enrolled for military service" then whether the TA is a militia or not it is certainly a military organisation. If people in Starfleet meet this definition it is also a military organisation.
Quote:
If Starfleet is a military it is completely unlike any military today. The main job of militaries today is defence of their parent nation. Starfleets main job is Scientific and Exploration, Defence of the Federation is a secondary role.
If this was true when the Federation was fighting for its life, then the Federation are idiots.
Quote:
I'm finding it hard to see Starfleet as a military, at least as a military as we understand it, since militaries today don't spend most of their time exploring the Amazon or trying to find the cure for cancer.
How do you know that most of Starfleets budget goes on science?
IIRC Enterprise-D spent most of its time in diplomatic and transport roles. DS9 was not a research station. Voyager was on a military mission when it got kicked across the galaxy. Starfleet may contain ships with a scientific mission. It certainly contains ships eg the Defiant, with a mainly military mission.
You could just as easily say that the Federation had militarised its scientific research.
As I understand your arguments, if the army took over the police and counterintelligence roles, as well as complete control over the economy, the army would cease to be a military organisation. After all, the defense of the country would no longer be its primary role. And you would deny, on that basis, that the resulting society was militarised.
There must be a mistake here somewhere.
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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:26 PM
Quote:Now you keep moving the goal posts. The TA is a Militia, not a Military, so you say "it's a military organisation" as if it's the same thing. That's just dishonest.
Originally posted by cavalier:
If people in the TA are "enrolled for military service" then whether the TA is a militia or not it is certainly a military organisation. If people in Starfleet meet this definition it is also a military organisation.
Quote:I said earlier that it seemed to have more in common with modern militias than modern militaries, in that case making defence a primary concern solely during war time wouldn't make them a military.
If this was true when the Federation was fighting for its life, then the Federation are idiots.
Quote:How do you know it doesn't?
How do you know that most of Starfleets budget goes on science?
Take a look at the characters, most of them actually have a scientific background. It's mentioned ad nauseum that Starfleets primary mission is exploratory and scientific, To seek out new life and new civilisations, to boldly go where no one has gone before ring a bell?
Quote:Nearly every episode had references to the Enterprise's research role. It was also a big ship with lots of laboratories.
IIRC Enterprise-D spent most of its time in diplomatic and transport roles.
Quote:I'll say it again, DS9 is not a Federation station. It did however act as a trading station, every shot of it pretty much had a freighter arriving or leaving, a few of the main characters were traders or freighter captains and the like.
DS9 was not a research station.
Quote:And when they got to the other end of the galaxy the crew was excited about what? Exploring or killing new aliens? What did they spend most of their time doing? Every episode in the first couple of seasons of Voyager had them stopping off to explore this or meet that. Maybe they were working out who was ripe for conquest?
Voyager was on a military mission when it got kicked across the galaxy.
Quote:Except it was always maintained that Starfleet was formed for scientific research, and research is what they spend most of their time doing.
You could just as easily say that the Federation had militarised its scientific research.
Quote:I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying the Federation doesn't have a full time army. You're argument seems to be that if we were to disband the military and in times of war used Civilian planes to move police to the combat zone then all of a sudden that means the Police are all in the military even when they're acting as the Police in peace time and that all civilian planes are really military planes no matter where they're going or who they're taking there.
As I understand your arguments, if the army took over the police and counterintelligence roles, as well as complete control over the economy, the army would cease to be a military organisation. After all, the defense of the country would no longer be its primary role. And you would deny, on that basis, that the resulting society was militarised.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:51 PM
the idea of the federation would never work realsitically, it would certaintly become corrupt just as any large unopposed regime would. but what difference does it make? fascist or not, star trek is still crap.
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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:51 PM
Edit: sorry, it made me lag out and double post
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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:51 PM
Edit: sorry, it lagged out and make me triple post
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