Why Darwin Matters
POSTED BY: misbehaven
UPDATED: Monday, September 11, 2006 18:05
VIEWED: 12064
PAGE 8 of 9
Citizen- just so i understand your theory correctly, you think that christianity is the world puppetmaster, with the end goal of abolishing church and state..with what motive? i really want to hear your theory about how all of this is layed out, from beginning to end; the truth as you see it?
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Quote:In the words of Homer Simpson Holy-Macaroni! Where did I say that?
Originally posted by antimason:
Citizen- just so i understand your theory correctly, you think that christianity is the world puppetmaster, with the end goal of abolishing church and state..with what motive? i really want to hear your theory about how all of this is layed out, from beginning to end; the truth as you see it?
I merely said that some fundementalist Christians in America are preparing to take over the US government from within and turn the country into a theocracy.
I've seen them on video saying "We're preparing these children to be the next presidents of the United States and to break down the barrier between church and state". They were talking about a well funded private school, whose science lessons are to do with debunking science in the face of Christianity, not with teaching science or the scientific method.
I imagine they want to do it because like many hard core fundemenatalists they are utterly convinced that they are right, that their actions are gods will and they merely want to save America from sin.
Unfortunatly when you get a group of people who tend to think they're a little bit infallible and that they're actions are mandated from on up high you tend to get crusades and inquisitions. You'll at the very least have pretty stringent laws against Freedom of Speech, who ever heard of a Christian Theocracy that allowed people to say they don't believe in God?
Point is there are VERY good reasons for the seperation between Church and state, and evidently some people don't realise that. Islamic nutcases fly planes into buildings, Christian nutcases work behind the scenes, which singles them out as a fair bit more dangerous, since they are not committing a crime, they're legally planning to turn the US into a fascist state.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Point is there are VERY good reasons for the seperation between Church and state, and evidently some people don't realise that.
Right, citizen, and not only from a secular point of view. There are many hints in the new testament, that point into this direction as well (e.g. give Caesar, what belongs to him, and GOD, what belongs to him - sorry, translated from German not into correct "St James stile"). So I wonder, whether these Christians really know their good book, or just go on with their own plans (not asking for HIS).
Only one quick post today. Gotta go.
Esther
Love my captain!
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Quote:
who ever heard of a Christian Theocracy that allowed people to say they don't believe in God
who ever heard of a Christian Theocracy at all????
Love my captain!
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I suppose most of our "thoughts" are based on feelings. So while CTS had an experience that leads to the thought "Someone is out there cheerleading me on" I could point to an equally powerful (and likely equally invalid) feeling that NOBODY is out there, NOBODY "cares". The anti-Santa Claus moment.
One feeling versus another.
Feelings are very tricky things. I deal with three people: Myself, my child, and my SO- whose feelings are compromised in one way or another and are therefore unreliable tools for decision-making. I have overridden some of my deepest feelings when making decisions (followed my head, not my heart) only to learn that my head was correct.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:Vatican City (it's an independent state), just about all of Europe for a good deal of it's history.
Originally posted by Esther:Quote:
who ever heard of a Christian Theocracy that allowed people to say they don't believe in God
who ever heard of a Christian Theocracy at all????
Love my captain!
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Vatican City (it's an independent state), just about all of Europe for a good deal of it's history.
Nah, not really. Ever been to Vatican state? It's a Part of the city of Rome - and heavily depending on Italian politics. It has 0,44 square-kilometres and around 900 inhabitants (about 550 of which are state citizens). That would be like calling Manhattan an independent state (or my employing company, coming to speak of it. I always suspected, it's a "bureaucracy" in a totalitarian sense).
And coming to European history: there was a constant quarrel going on between the "wordly" powers (Kings and the like), and the pope - of which in some stages, there were up to three different ones at a time. The popes never had any "wordly" power, and the Kings tried to keep it this way. People knew, that it was about power, not about God (if you look at medieval heaven-and-hell pictuers, you find often quite a lot of clerics burning on the hell side - even popes!) Medieval time was not as homogenous, at it often seems for us today. There were lots of heathens (Saxons, Fanks, Allemans, Wikings etc.)all over the place,and latr the reformation.
From about 1122 (Investiturstreit - Canossa - Wormser Konkordat, sorry, I tried to look that up in English, but I didn't find a translation), the separation between church and state was pretty definite.
I really wouldn't call that a theocracy. I still don't think, that it's "intrinsic" to Christianity, to build a theocracy - on the contrary: it's all about personal relationship (to God) and our own conscience. Jesus was a rebel to the system, Luther was too, even St. Franciscus.
But maybe, that's just a matter of wording and I don't really get, what you are saying.
Oh, and your remark "Europe for a good deal of it's history" made me smile a bit. Christianity bekame state religion in the East-Roman Empire (actually partly Asia - today's Turkey) around 300 (Konstantin the Great) and at 600, the continent was so "heathen" again, that missionaries were sent out from Ireland building monasteries on the continent. But before that, Europe had a history of about 8.000 years (if you start at the later stoneage) or even 2,4 million years (if you start at the first stone tools of Homo Egaster - after all, this is a "Evolution" thread, is it?) without any Christianity (and thus Christian Theocracy).
I'm not a historian. I found all the figures in Wikipedia (great tool!)
Esther
Love my captain!
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Number one:
The Vatican is an independent state. Manhattan isn't. Saying Vatican City is an independent state is nothing like saying Manhattan is an independent state.
Vatican City is OFFICIALLY an independent state.
Don't believe me? Ask wiki:
Quote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City
Vatican City Coordinates: 41°54′10″N, 12°27′9″E — formally State of the Vatican City, or Vatican City State (Italian: Stato della Città del Vaticano, Latin: Status Civitatis Vaticanae) — is a sovereign city-state whose territory consists of a landlocked, almost completely walled, enclave within the city of Rome, Italy. The entire state is about 44 hectares (108.7 acres) and thus is a European microstate.
Number Two:
I'll tell you what; you're splitting of hairs made me smile. I would have thought it obvious I was talking of modern Europe, which didn't exist until after the collapse of the Roman Empire. Most of the states of Europe were founded as Christian, were ruled by 'divine' kings and worship of any religion other than the state religion was punishable by death, that's the definition of theocracy.
The history of Europe goes back Billions of years, but the dinosaurs not being Christian means nothing.
The argument of Homo ergaster makes no sense (not least since I’m pretty sure homo ergaster never existed in ‘Europe’), so what there was no Christianity back then, there was no Europe back then either. There was land we came to call Europe, but by similar logic we could say Israel hasn't been Jewish for all its history because Palestine wasn't Jewish prior to 1947.
A definition of Theocracy:
Any government in which the leaders of the government are also the leaders of the religion and they rule as representatives of the deity.
So, for instance, just like Henry Tudor VIII.
Number Three:
I never said there was something special about Christianity that creates theocracies, and saying "Jesus was a rebel" as proof that Christianity can't produce theocracies seems pretty nonsensical.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Hi Citizen,
the sound of your answer made me feel, as if I had stepped on your toes a bit. wasn't my intent. I just always feel kind of bad if someone puts so many countries and centuries (as the time of Europe after the roman empire) into one single statement, and I always feel, that "Middle Ages" is a wildly missunderstood concept (like there was rather no burning of whitches in the Middle Ages. That only started in the 14 hundreds, which is already Renaissance - modern Ages). I have the same problem with the US - I had one of these "all US is a non-culture we-can-buy-everything McDonalds community" discussion with a russian colleage today. Just pisses me off. He never had been to the states, and still he leaves "no good hair" on them.
Yes, you're right, vatican is an official state. I just thought using the word "theocracy" for 500 people was a bit "big" (some churches have more members...), but o.k., point taken.
I was already typing some answers to your other points, but I erased them, thinking this would be more suitable for a discussion we could lead over a friendly glass of wine, if we should ever meet. Going to any convention in the near future?
So, read you around the vicinity
Esther
Love my captain!
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Sorry, didn't mean it to come across like that, I'd just landed from my trip to the states, 7.5hr flight overnight so.
Yeah I'm going to S3, planning on D*C next year in September, you?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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