The right to Free Speech and Peaceably Assemble
POSTED BY: FellowTraveler
UPDATED: Friday, April 24, 2026 16:14
VIEWED: 13695
PAGE 11 of 13
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Originally posted by SignyM:
Fellow- If true, your statements point to a serious problem. Links, please??
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
I didn't mean this did happen, sorry. I should have been more clear. It's just a hypothetical. Several people in this post pointed out that the state firing this man (for being a member and posting on the Klan's website) did not violate his rights to free speech, because he can still speak.
Thus, him being fired is immaterial to his right to free speech.
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When did the government infringe his freedom of speech? He's not been forced to leave the Klan, no one has duct taped his mouth shut. His freedom of speech is not being infringed in anyway.
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From what I understand, the thing about constitutional rights is that they aren't there to protect people from being fired.
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Employment is a contract between the employer and employee. Outside of prohibiting discrimination because of gender or race, the constitution has no say in what conditions an employer wishes to impose on an employee.
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No one is infringing his rights of peaceable aassembly or freedom of speech, it's a pity with your lack of insight you can't understand that.
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It's still not a limit on speech.
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Easy, and I think I answered this already, when someone is prevented from taking that stance. He's not been prevented, not once.
I was attempting to apply this position to other civil rights circumstances to demonstrate its weakness.
My arguement is this: The state can't fire you if you vote (Constitutional right), the state can't fire you if own a gun (Constitutional right), the state can't fire for your faith (Constitutional right), and thus the state can't fire you for speech (Constitutional right).
In non of those hypothetical circumstances is a person being prevented from voting, owning a weapon, or practicing their faith. Yet, I think most reasonable people would find this objectionable, in fact illegal, because these conditions do violate a persons rights.
The right to free expression is as protected as the right to vote, bear arms, and religion.
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FT employees are assumed to have 'property rights' to their jobs. I'd think you can't violate their property rights (fire them) without due process. Some violations of work rules are cause for immediate dismissal whether you are employed by the government or private employer (OTJ violence). However, if belonging to the KKK or similar groups was not specifically forbidden by the employer, I can't imagine on what grounds the person could be fired.
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Originally posted by fredgiblet:
It really isn't a difficult concept to understand: the cop got fired because his choices reduced his ability to do his job. If I work in Sales in a conservative Christian area, and I decide to cover my face with Satanic tattoos my ability to do my job is reduced, therefore my company will fire me. That doesn't mean my 1st amendment rights have been violated, just that I'm a retard who did something that would obviously make me unfit for my job.
I conceded the point that his on the job performance could be impacted adversely 40 posts ago.
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Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Second, even if he manages to keep his personal feeling seperate from his job think about this: he arrests a black man for something, the charge goes to court, the black mans lawyer finds out that the cop is a KKK member, the black man walks free, regardless of innocence or guilt, not a good outcome. *cough*O.J.*cough*
Third, if he is known to be a KKK member, then in all likelyhood people around him will react quite negatively, this can cause serious issues for a cop. Consider: if he is investigating a crime in a predominantly black area (or even an area with just a few blacks) and he has to get information from black people, what will the result be if they know of his affiliation? Probably not nearly as good as if he wasn't a KKK member. So what has to be done? Should the police have to send someone else whenever a black person is being interviewed?
These are excellent points that I (hangs head in shame) didn't consider.
But as TwilightJack aptly wrote:
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But if that alone is grounds for dismissal, we have to be very, very clear as to what sorts of unpopular opinions and affiliations represent such a public relations nightmare as to qualify for such treatment. If racist opinions are sufficient, are religious ones? Radically divergent political leanings? Should he have been fired if he were a member of the Church of Satan (which are a legitimate religious organization; see www.churchofsatan.com])? How about obviously homosexual? Fundamentalist evangelical christian? Ties to the Socialist Party? Freemason? Would a Klansman deputy be acceptable in a small, insulated town without any minority population? Would a black deputy be inappropriate in a town with a huge Klan presence? How about a Scientologist in hard-core bible belt territory? A white man from the deep south in Harlem?
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Originally posted by rue:
However, if belonging to the KKK or similar groups was not specifically forbidden by the employer, I can't imagine on what grounds the person could be fired.
Like I keep saying, reduced ability to do his job. I'm a white guy, Norwegian-German by heritage, I wouldn't want a KKK member as a cop in my town, and I wouldn't be as likely to give him information. I can only imagine what a black person would feel about it.
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Originally posted by FellowTraveler:
But as TwilightJack aptly wrote:Quote:
But if that alone is grounds for dismissal, we have to be very, very clear as to what sorts of unpopular opinions and affiliations represent such a public relations nightmare as to qualify for such treatment. If racist opinions are sufficient, are religious ones? Radically divergent political leanings? Should he have been fired if he were a member of the Church of Satan (which are a legitimate religious organization; see www.churchofsatan.com])? How about obviously homosexual? Fundamentalist evangelical christian? Ties to the Socialist Party? Freemason? Would a Klansman deputy be acceptable in a small, insulated town without any minority population? Would a black deputy be inappropriate in a town with a huge Klan presence? How about a Scientologist in hard-core bible belt territory? A white man from the deep south in Harlem?
And I replied with some criteria: A voluntary association (thus race/sexual preference/etc. are out). And an association that actively reinforces negative prejudices against itself (members of the Lions club typically don't attack or harrass people in the name of the Lions Club).
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Originally posted by fredgiblet:
And I replied with some criteria: A voluntary association (thus race/sexual preference/etc. are out). And an association that actively reinforces negative prejudices against itself (members of the Lions club typically don't attack or harrass people in the name of the Lions Club).
I agree totally that the Lions Club doesn't attack or harrass people. Those examples were meant to be extreme.
But can we agree that certain voluntary religious groups do?
Specifically, the group with the "God Hates Fags" signs and the ones who were recently protesting at military funerals. The Westboro Baptist Church, as mentioned by a previous post.
Can we further agree that this guy didn't attack anyone or harrass anyone? As stated in the article above.
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Originally posted by FellowTraveler:
Specifically, the group with the "God Hates Fags" signs and the ones who were recently protesting at military funerals. The Westboro Baptist Church, as mentioned by a previous post.
A group of people who I would be in favor of executing and who no one should ever employ. The law shouldn't protect people for being assholes (but then we'd probably all be dead so...).
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Can we further agree that this guy didn't attack anyone or harrass anyone? As stated in the article above.
Yes, but police departments spend a lot of time skating on the thin ice of public perception, if he did anything and his affiliation became known the lawyers would demolish the department.
Additionally you need to add a couple things on to your statement above: "yet", and "that we know of". Just because his membership hasn't caused an issue yet doesn't mean it won't, and just because we don't know about issues doesn't mean there aren't any.
I would be particularly worried about this because of the reinforcement, he may not be considereing attacking minorities yet, but his association with the KKK will likely deepen his emnity as time goes by.
Adtionally this still doesn't refute my points about his ability to do his job.
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I don't have a hard answer for you, but this is similar to thoughts I had while at a protest this weekend. The National Socialist Movement (aka American Nazi Party) was having a demonstration in town this weekend. The whole time, they were on the capitol steps, behind a fence, with mounted police and state patrol in riot gear between them and the protesters. There were also regular and school police in the crowd. The armed guard included minorities and definitely some Jewish people.
I wondered how they felt about having to defend someone's right to free speech, even when the message was against their existence. I talked to people around me and they said that if they were in a similar position, they would see themself as "keeping the peace".
It's possible that this officer would feel the same way and would in fact be able to do his job fairly. It's also possible that he wouldn't. I think he should probably be put back, until he does something that demonstrates active discrimination.
But who knows if state workers actually have the same rights.
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Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.
~Forsaken Forever
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Originally posted by citizen:Quote:Ahh, so now anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't have any insight.
Originally posted by Dreamtrove:
My suspcion after reading this thread is that people are far less insightful here than I thought. If you frame any question the right way, they'd all fall right in line.
No one is infringing his rights of peaceable aassembly or freedom of speech, it's a pity with your lack of insight you can't understand that. You hear "either let racist cops be in a position of authority over other races or your banning freedom of speech!" and you fall right in line. Bravo.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
Is the fact that CiTz, an English type gent, who resides in a country without the guarantees of freedom of press, speech, and assembly, blowing his hot air on all thingys American, Hilarious to anyone but me. According to the ISIL, over 6,250 people have been imprisoned in England for things of this nature. The US, having the most liberal laws when it comes to freedoms compared to most western nations, leads the way on this. We take our liberties seriously. This man has the right to join any org. he wants to. He doesn't have to explain it to me or anyone else. I haven't heard any complaints about his conduct on the job. It is no different than a black man joining Faracon's Nation of Islam. Don't let white mans guilt cloud your judgment. The KKK hasn't been a violent Org. in many years. And to be honest do you ever sit around and listen to what white and black people say about each other? I think we would have a hard time putting together a police force if you couldn't be a little "racist"
..Well, Sad but true.
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Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:LOL. People with guns always have power.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I don't think a cop has any power.
I have a friend who is a cop magnet. For some strange reason, he can be doing absolutely nothing wrong, and they will zoom in right for him. He'll drive through a rural town, get pulled over, and have his comic book collection confiscated because some of them depicted upper body nudity, and pornography is against the law in that town. The ACLU tells him that he can sue them but he should know that everyone they've represented in that state has dropped their suit or moved out of state before it gets to court, because of severe cop harrassment.
Once I was with him when we pulled into a parking lot to check the oil in his car. A cop followed us and asked us to step out. He said to me, "Good evening ma'am can I see some ID?" Then he turned to my friend and said, "You. Up against the car, and spread your legs." I wouldn't have believed it if I weren't there.\
He's been arrested for walking down the street at 11:30 pm. They asked him for ID, he said he wasn't carrying any, cause you know, he wasn't driving but walking. They booked him for vagrancy. When he tried to protest, they said, "We can do anything we want to you, boy." And you know what? They can.
And this guy isn't even black.
So you know, I gotta chuckle when someone says a cop doesn't have any power.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
My grandfather was a police officer in a crappy town in ND until recently. The guys in the next town/county over always pulled people over who weren't from the area because they were total pricks. Once they pulled my grandfather over and he verbally bitch slapped them. Funniest thing I've ever seen.
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Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.
~Forsaken Forever
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