Why Darwin Matters
POSTED BY: misbehaven
UPDATED: Monday, September 11, 2006 18:05
VIEWED: 12064
PAGE 6 of 9
Quote:
I was trying to come up with some reason why you'd use such an overreaching word as 'Inquisition' to describe Christianity here in the U.S.
Um, getting shot at, harrassed, damned near set on fire TWICE, fired from a dispatch position, accused of demon worship and being vampiric and/or demonic in nature just before being nearly run out of town by the congregation of the local church, only to leave in disgust a few weeks later....
Gee, would that qualify, shithead ?
I get REAL pissed when Christians shovel that "oh we're a persecuted minority" shit despite the fact that they've been the prime movers behind every goddamned (pun intended) bloodbath in this country for over 200 years.
As far as "Christianity here in the U.S." - as practiced by the masses, it's every bit as bad as the inquisition, especially when employers sneakily discriminate, the homeowners org tries to determine your beliefs because they suspect you of not being a churchgoer, when you run facefirst into endless hurdles and have to conceal your own beliefs just to get along in the freakin community, you bet it's an inquisition.
Christianity as it is/was intended may be a different thing, but what the general populace practices in it's name is a nightmare for those who do NOT practice the belief, it's like being "Not a member of the party!" under the more brutal Soviet regimes, or during Hitlers reign.
In fact... it's EXACTLY like that.
Overreaching word my ass, it's as exact a description as possible.
-Frem
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Now now, drama queen. Seems like you have a rather exaggerated view of yourself. I'm sure that in, EVERY case, you were minding your own sweet business, and loh and behold!....out of the woodwork all these seething fundies w/ pitch forks and torches came banging on your door!!!
* wishes there was a snooze emoticon *
Frem, I don't know you, and sure as hell wasn't ridiculing anything which you hold dear, so what the fuck is w/ you and the ad hominems toward me ? If you WANTED to beg to differ, and then calmly relay your own views, then fine. But you didn't have to such an a-hole about it all. You sound like the sort who spills their problems out on the dinner tabel for all to see, even when no one asked you to. Maybe it's the way you dress, the way you talk, the music you listen to...hell, I have no idea. But it sure sounds like you've gone out of your way to show you're all non conformy and then whine when folks treat you as a non conformy type.
The brutal Soviet regimes? Hitler's reign? You are SERIOUSLY lacking in historical reference here, pal. You sound like Dick Durbin, for Buddha's sake. Overreact much ? Oops. too late. I already know the answer to that one.
And please, read this part before you lash back in some standard, knee jerk reply. I am NOT a Christian ( believer in Christ, born again,..get the idea ? ) so don't waste your diatribe telling me I'm the one going to hell or some such nonsense.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Dude, you seriously need to introduce yourself to a quaalude or something, and chill out.
If I was so damn expressive in person, why the hell would the local homeowners org need to try so hard to find out which church, if any, I belong to, eh ?
It's not their damned business by any means, and if I cared for them to know they would, so your argument goes to pieces.
Was I deliberately and maliciously baiting you, specifically, in hopes of watching you verbally crap a brick cause someone dared blow yet another of your precious fictions into powder ?
Yeah, I guess I was... *shrug*, it was funny.
Lenin wasn't brutal ? Stalin wasn't brutal ?
Gee, I guess sending dissenters off to the gulags was their version of club med, now wasn't it ?
And Hitler didn't much care for non-party members either.
Let's face the facts here, whether you like it or not, in this day and age, in the USA, the supposed land of freedom (hahahah*gasp*hahahaha) being found to be non-christian is damned well exactly like being found to not be a "loyal member of the party" in communist russia or nazi germany - people talk, they work against you, of course all in the name of "bringing you to god" but yes, some of em don't much care how you get there.
And for your information, since you care so much, most of that came from a rather odd set of rumors set in motion by an ex-friend who figured out what my beliefs were and went completely apeshit about it to the locals, your typical pig-humping straw hat conservative bucktooth morons who couldn't rub two brain cells together if they had them, who decided to run me off until they realized that not ALL different belief systems are dumbass neo-pacificst doormats just waiting to be walked on, and that they might actually.. you know, get HURT in the process of trying to harm me, and then like the cowards they were, ran back to their church to try to PRAY me out of town, oh joy oh joy - I guess they prolly even believed it worked, since I left the area in disgust with them shortly thereafter.
You also make the dire mistake of somehow believing I care what you believe, or what you think - why would I ? why should I ?
You'd have to actually matter to me for that to happen.
-Frem
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Quote:As a former fundie, I have to concur with Frem--but I would qualify evangelical Christianity (or fundamentalist Christianity) as opposed to your average Methodist or cradle Catholic who doesn't give others enough thought to persecute them. Not to say Methodists and Catholics don't have their own version of modern inquisition, but relatively speaking, it is a LOT tamer.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
In fact... it's EXACTLY like that.
Overreaching word my ass, it's as exact a description as possible.
Now not ALL evangelical Christians are like that. Some fundies are tolerant and kind in the original tradition of their faith. And some parts of the country are worse than others.
But evangelical Christianity, as a whole, is founded on the bedrock of judgment. God judges who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. Born again Christians are taught to JUDGE who is a Christian and who isn't (cause you know, yoking with a nonbeliever is a sin), to JUDGE what is a sin and what isn't. In addition, they are rabid about proselytizing and forcing their morals on others. This compulsion to judge results in an inquisition-type climate for those who they've singled out as sinful or wicked.
Like I said, I used to be a fundie. My husband headed the D&D group at our college and was singled out by my group as being the spawn of Satan. I went to talk to him for a few months, decided that not only was he not the anti-Christ incarnate, but that he was really a Christian. I was called before the congregation, accused of a slew of lies without being able to defend myself, and told that I was gangrene in the body of Christ and needed to be cut off. All my friends and roommates were told never to speak to me again except to ask me to repent. Now if that isn't an inquisition type event, I don't know what is.
Now to be fair, not all evangelical churches operate this way. However, even without these extremes, the intolerance of dissention underlies most of their interaction with the world.
God help us all should they ever achieve the political power they crave. I have no doubt that it will be every bit as brutal as Stalin or Hitler.
Frem, have you ever seen a little known movie called Rising Storm? It depicts a futuristic theocratic police state. My favorite line in that movie is, "Don't I have rights?" -- "F*ck your rights! Praise Jesus!"
Cracks me up.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Nitpicking my way thru the thread...
Quote:Then why not credit Smith directly? I might have read "The Wordly Philosophers" (which discusses Marx) and credit my understanding of economic philosophies, but that doesn't mean I read Marx.
People think if Darwin admittedly credits Malthus, he must have read Smith as well.
Quote:Do scientist "believe" in science like you "believe" in God? Yes. Behind every philosophy are underlying assumptions which cannot be proven or reduced. But what that means is that the underlying assumptions- that which you assume to be true- really are fundamentally incompatible. There is no way to "blend" belief in the natural v belief in the supernatural.
I think your point was that scientists have some sort of "schism" if they believe in both God and science at the same time.
Quote:Terrorism committed by Xtians- 50,000+ since 2000 if you count dead Iraqi civilians. Which I know you don't because
terrorism commited by christians -( eric rudolph ) olympic park bombing. deaths - 1
(a) They're not Americans. Only dead Americans count.
(b) Killing civilians to induce state of terror isn't terrorism if you have really big guns to do it with.
(c) The invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with the War on Islam. Except unless otherwise noted by Auraptor.
---------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:Well, that may be the crux of our disagreement. Like I said, plenty of very well respected and well published scientist do that very blending, so I am concluding there must be a way to blend. You call that way "schism," and they call that way, "way."
Originally posted by SignyM:
There is no way to "blend" belief in the natural v belief in the supernatural.
Here is the thing Sig. Many of us scientists do not assume that the "natural" is all there is in the universe. I really think whether you call it a schism or not boils down to this question: you either believe what Causal calls physical monism, or you believe the supernatural can possibly exist (simply because well, one can't scientifically or logically prove that it doesn't).
And if you're a physical monist, that is fine. Allow some room for dissent without saying your belief system is superior and the only one that is true?
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Quote:
Fremdfirma wrote:
Tuesday, August 29, 2006 05:24
Dude, you seriously need to introduce yourself to a quaalude or something, and chill out.
If I was so damn expressive in person, why the hell would the local homeowners org need to try so hard to find out which church, if any, I belong to, eh ?
It's not their damned business by any means, and if I cared for them to know they would, so your argument goes to pieces.
Was I deliberately and maliciously baiting you, specifically, in hopes of watching you verbally crap a brick cause someone dared blow yet another of your precious fictions into powder ?
Yeah, I guess I was... *shrug*, it was funny.
Dude, keep the self medication to a minimum, if you can. I'll skip the 'lude, pal. It's you who needs it. You sure are making a big deal out of some homeowners group ASKING what church you attend. If it's none of their bidness, no big worries. They can ask, doesn't mean you have to answer. And it doesn't mean you have to feel threatened either. You've got some serious paranoia issues, that's for sure.
Quote:You comparing anything today in the US to what Lenin or Hitler did is patently absurd.That stuff WAS brutal. What you're experiencing isn't. Not by a long shot. That's where you need to learn up on your history. You underscore what went on in those regimes when you try to compare them to anything you'll ever experience.
Lenin wasn't brutal ? Stalin wasn't brutal ?
Gee, I guess sending dissenters off to the gulags was their version of club med, now wasn't it ?
And Hitler didn't much care for non-party members either.
Quote:" they work against you! " Yep, you're paranoid. I just wonder what section of the US you live in. I happen to live in the S.E. And yes, I know small towns can be rather close minded, but so what ?
Let's face the facts here, whether you like it or not, in this day and age, in the USA, the supposed land of freedom (hahahah*gasp*hahahaha) being found to be non-christian is damned well exactly like being found to not be a "loyal member of the party" in communist russia or nazi germany - people talk, they work against you, of course all in the name of "bringing you to god" but yes, some of em don't much care how you get there.
Quote:
And for your information, since you care so much, most of that came from a rather odd set of rumors set in motion by an ex-friend who figured out what my beliefs were and went completely apeshit about it to the locals, your typical pig-humping straw hat conservative bucktooth morons who couldn't rub two brain cells together if they had them, who decided to run me off until they realized that not ALL different belief systems are dumbass neo-pacificst doormats just waiting to be walked on, and that they might actually.. you know, get HURT in the process of trying to harm me, and then like the cowards they were, ran back to their church to try to PRAY me out of town, oh joy oh joy - I guess they prolly even believed it worked, since I left the area in disgust with them shortly thereafter.
You also make the dire mistake of somehow believing I care what you believe, or what you think - why would I ? why should I ?
You'd have to actually matter to me for that to happen.
-Frem
Oh yes, the mighty individual you are. You fly off the handle the moment anyone DARES to suggest you live your own life, regardless of what others think. " Oooooho! But they're out to get me! An ex-friend spread rumors about me and I still act like I'm in Jr High school, and now Jenny's friend won't say hello to me because she thinks I don't like her friends, blah blah blah ..... "
I can see you have a great deal of growing up to do. Or maybe in your case, it's 'evolving', before you and I could ever see eye to eye.
But I'm not holding my breath. G'day.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it wh
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Quote:
They can ask, doesn't mean you have to answer. And it doesn't mean you have to feel threatened either.
Askin is one thing, but you know quite well it don't stop with just askin, and it hasn't, and I personally find it somewhat annoying, wouldn't anyone ?
Quote:
You comparing anything today in the US to what Lenin or Hitler did is patently absurd.
Is it now ? rabid nationalism, racism and aggression against a targeted ethnic group, homeland security, intensive surveillance, gitmo... on no, nothing like those regimes, nothing to see here, move along, move along, shows over folks...
Umm, do you even live on the same planet as the rest of us, I wonder ?
Quote:
" they work against you! " Yep, you're paranoid. I just wonder what section of the US you live in. I happen to live in the S.E. And yes, I know small towns can be rather close minded, but so what ?
Oh that's rich, you start with calling me paranoid for noticing something that at the end of the sentence, you admit that they do.
Sure you're not already self-medicating ? Paxil counts, you know.
And I got only one thing to say in response to you thinking me being pissed about something throwing a molotov (which thankfully fell short) at my house is "junior high".
I'm glad my neighbor is a better person than you and rolled out his garden hose to assist instead of accusing me of something.
And in case you missed it, I don't care what they think, and I certainly don't care what you think - I care what people DO... and if they do offensive things, I take issue with it.
Like Hero, you keep buyin rope from me, and even help tie the noose, don't you people ever learn?
-Frem
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Quote:
Like Hero, you keep buyin rope from me, and even help tie the noose, don't you people ever learn?
-Frem
The only way this comes close to making sense is that you're a troll, and are simply spewing this shit for some lame ass amusement. You've already shown yourself to be irrational, so I'll group you in w/ your fellow troll buddies, Pirate News and Kaneman. Enjoy!
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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CTS- Ah, the nub.
Quote:People - even scientists- are notoriously illogical, contextual non-thinkers. There are several examples how most people are wrong most of the time which will take too long to type up. Suffice it to say, I do not find this a compelling argument.
Well, that may be the crux of our disagreement. Like I said, plenty of very well respected and well published scientist do that very blending, so I am concluding there must be a way to blend. You call that way "schism," and they call that way, "way."
Quote:So given possibility that something "untestable" exists "outside of the natural universe" (BTW that's a contradiction in terms. The universe is by definition "everything that exists everywhere") why would someone choose to assume that it exists?
Here is the thing Sig. Many of us scientists do not assume that the "natural" is all there is in the universe. I really think whether you call it a schism or not boils down to this question: you either believe what Causal calls physical monism, or you believe the supernatural can possibly exist (simply because well, one can't scientifically or logically prove that it doesn't).
Quote:http://www.answers.com/topic/physicalism
And if you're a physical monist, that is fine. Allow some room for dissent without saying your belief system is superior and the only one that is true?
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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