Serenity is 'fascist'?
POSTED BY: goat
UPDATED: Friday, September 1, 2006 07:13
VIEWED: 16002
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Quote:Yeah. The most effective "true" democracy I know of is fictional, and that was the Borg Collective, and even their foreign policy was. . . bad.
Originally posted by bad2verse:
Actually we're a "Republic" with a Democratic form of government ("And to the Republic, for which it stands...").
There's a BIG difference.. WE elect our representitives to make decisions for us, hopefully based on the will of the people.. but we expect those leaders to be more informed about issues than "The People", and to make good decisions for us (Even if the decisions aren't popular). If we "Voted" on EVERYTHING (As true a Democracy would), we wouldn't ever get anything done, and since many people DON'T keep up with issues at all, it would quickly degenerate into a brawling mob... No Democracy has ever made it past the 75 year mark as a country that I know of.
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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This is the first of my small series of thread hijacks...
Quote:
Originally posted by bad2verse:
None of this would matter if it wasn't in the article incorrectly.. we "Assume" that authors in national media outlets know their history, but the more YOU learn about History, the more you wonder where these so-called "Experts" got their educations, because they frequently butcher history unknowingly and a whole generation ends up with incorrect information... Glenn Beck on CNN the other night told a PHD "I only have one semester of college, I'm a recovering drug addict and alcoholic, but ANYONE can see ____"... and I thought "THIS guy is qualified to report national news... how????"
I wouldn't put too much faith in those bearing fancy pieces of paper (or, sheepskin, I guess), either. Glenn Beck's point is not that he is smarter and therefore informing the public from his wisdom. His point is that he is just a regular flawed guy, asking questions of the PhD, and representing an honest and personal point of view. He's never claimed to be a reporter. But the fact is, reporters are also just regular flawed guys, despite their delusions of objectivity. I much prefer someone like Beck, upfront about who they are and where they come from (recovering Top 40 DJ) and how that influences their view of things, than supposed objective, educated reporters.
So, I agree with you. Reporters don't know what the hell they're talking about. All you have to do is be involved in something that is being reported to see all of the consistant glaring inaccuracies. (This was a fun, though frustrating, excercise during Serenity's release. It was rare to come across an article that wasn't full of inaccurate or just plain wrong information.) It is safe to apply that level of error to every article or news broadcast you consume. The only problem is, if you don't know the information yet, you don't know which part is inaccurate.
So, to me, the only kind of 'news programming' worth consuming is that in which there is a known factor - i.e., the person themselves. That knowledge is what helps you, as a consumer, spot the inaccuracies even if you're not informed on the topic.
And on Beck, just for the record, I believe he's just a recovering alcoholic, not drug addict (not that it matters that much). And his one semester of college was at Yale, with a personal letter of recommendation from Joe Lieberman. (Yes, I know too much about Glenn Beck. What can I say, I have a talk radio habit...)
But, to pretend to bring this back on thread topic... The article in the original post illustrates my point. It is very hard to interperet what the author's point is, without some background on who he is, and what his political viewpoints are. He purposely used an incorrect application of the term "fascist" to make his own political point, but that point is lost, or simply confusing without the larger context of who he is. In his defense, this was published in a place where it's assumed any reader would already know that information.
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Ain't. We. Just.
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Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
gotta agree with most of what Bad2Verse has to say about Heinlein-- I've read just about every word RAH wrote myself. I see Mal as pretty close to a Heinlein hero, individualistic, libertarian, and pretty close to anarchist.
I see a lot more in common with The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress than with Starship Troopers, but nobody's ever made a film out of TMIAHM. Maybe somebody should?
Heh. Funny you should mention that. This interview is a year old, so I'm not terribly optimistic about the outcome, but it's still relevant to your question, and Firefly fans in general:
http://www.ifmagazine.com/feature.asp?article=1316
Quote:
From iFMagazine interview with Tim Minear, 8/9/05:
iF MAGAZINE: What’s next for you?
MINEAR: I’m doing another pass at MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS [an adaptation of the Robert Heinlein sci-fi novel]. It’s for producers David Hayman and Mike Medavoy. I did a pass of that last year, turned it in and they had some notes and they came to me this year and we talked about what the next pass would be. They were giving me their notes and what they were saying, “maybe you can do this, or do that,” and in my infinite wisdom said, “I have an idea, why don’t I do a whole new version. Why don’t I throw this out and start over.” They were like “you would do that?” And I’m like “yeah,” so that’s what I’m getting ready to do now.
iF MAGAZINE: Is it hard to adapt Heinlein?
MINEAR: Yes. Maybe HAVE SPACESUIT AND TRAVEL, which is really about that one guy, maybe that would be easier, but this is about a revolution. It’s big and it has a lot of really complex political ideas. It’s hard in that respect. How do you personalize this? There’s a lot of talking in the book – theoretical talking about Libertarian ideals and political structure and that sort of thing – how do you take that and make it immediate and dramatic and emotional? How do you say that stuff through scenes and action, as opposed to characters sitting around and having a conversation? That’s difficult. The other thing that is difficult is that there is also a certain amount of psychological pressure that I am trying to remove from myself when you’re adapting something like Heinlein. This book is so important to so many people and you don’t want to f*ck it up. So there’s that. You want to keep true to spirit of it, and you want to take this enormously long book, that takes place over a long period of time and try to do a version of it that will play for two hours on a movie screen. The other thing is to make sure the powers that be in Hollywood don’t force you to turn it into some Marxist screed on socialism, when Heinlein was a Libertarian and it’s about free-market capitalism. You want to try and not make it about an evil corporation. That’s the trick.
iF MAGAZINE: It’s just in the script-stage? No official greenlight yet?
MINEAR: Exactly. What they want to do is take it out to big name directors and they’ve named a couple of directors and it would be awesome if that happened. The people who optioned this book – Mike Medavoy and David Hayman – optioned it because they liked the book and the ideas are inspiring particularly the idea of retelling the American Revolution from this sci-fi point of view.
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Ain't. We. Just.
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Gotta agree with NEWOLDBROWNCVOAT about agreeing with BD2VERSE about Heinlein... I suggested awhile back that Joss should do "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" as a movie... And he could cast the Firefly crew in the roles. Book could be the Professor, Mal could be Manny, Jayne could be the voice of Mike, etc. All the same non-conformist elements as Firefly, only the patois & swearing would be in Russian instead of Chinese. Unless the whole Russian thing gets dropped. OK, so who do I get to call a bad name and start a pointless argument with? C'mon... Raise your hands -- no pushing in the back there...
[EDIT: Just read the above post -- would be nice if someone who loved Heinlein's work and had the writing / storytelling ability of Tim Minear got TMIAHM up on the screen]...
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I think there are a few basic things wrong with this Goldberg guy I couldn't not say something about. For one thing, calling Mal capitalistic--a truly pro-capitalism person reinvests capital into the system that produces it. However, Mal takes jobs not to perpetuate the economic system in which he lives, but to provide himself and his crew with needed supplies. This Goldberg guy is trying to make Mal sound like a pro-capitalist warrior, or a "freebooter" as he calls it, but in order to live, Mal must subvert supply-and-demand capitalism and take matters into his own hands--the current economic system does not provide for him.
Calling the Alliance "egalitarian" and "democratic" is so nonsensical I don't even think it needs to be pointed out anymore--there is no evidence that supports the idea that any voting took place to elect Alliance officials into power, or if they have term limits, checks and balances, or any of the other trappings that indicate democracy and egalitarianism.
One last thing, in response to some of our Conservative friends. Y'all have consistently stated that Conservatives, Right-Wingers, whatever you want to call 'em, support a decrease in government activity in the lives of its citizens. Yet, as Shiny so eloquently stated, it was the Conservatives, not the Democrats, who wanted to tell Terry Shiavo's husband what to do and take away his freedom of choice. It was the Republicans, not the Democrats, who prevented women from voting, African Americans from becoming full-fledged citizens, oppose allowing women the right to have an abortion, oppose the right of homosexuals to marry, and the list goes on. In each of these instances, the Republicans involve the government in our lives and the Democrats try to protect our rights, and our independence, by keeping the government out.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Yeah. The most effective "true" democracy I know of is fictional, and that was the Borg Collective, and even their foreign policy was. . . bad.
Except for one thing...the Borg don't vote. The borg (with the apparent exception of Locutus, the Queen, and a few outcasts) are a hive mind, they are essentially one person. One person does not constitue a democracy, one person simply makes decisions and implements them.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teachdaire:
Actually Starship Troopers is set in a totaltarian fascist state (only citizens can vote or have kids, and the quickest way to become a citizen is to enlist). Check out the book if you want to go further...
Um...being a citizen is not required to have kids (or else the main character would have never been born). And enlisting is not only the quickest way to get a vote...it is the only way.
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Quote:
Originally posted by bad2verse:
(Which is why I said the movie butchered his book).
Disagree...butchered isn't a strong enough word.
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Quote:
Originally posted by nosadseven:
(Snip)Glenn Beck's point is not that he is smarter and therefore informing the public from his wisdom. His point is that he is just a regular flawed guy, asking questions of the PhD, and representing an honest and personal point of view. He's never claimed to be a reporter.
I agree.. I actually like the guy, he asks the tough questions, and keeps it simple and doesn't let the other guy "weasle"... "Common Sense".. I just was kinda stunned that he'd admit to all that on National TV, but I do admire him for it... He's not pretending to be anything he's not, and he DOES strike a nerve with the "Average flawed person" (as we ALL are in some manner or another).
Quote:
And on Beck, just for the record, I believe he's just a recovering alcoholic, not drug addict (not that it matters that much). (snip)
He said he was a recovering Drug addict also at the same time he said he was a recovering Alcoholic.
Point being (I think) is that he DOESN'T pretend to be a "reporter", and admits he's not qualified to be one.. and as I thought about this for the last week or so, I see that he just asks the questions that the average American wants to ask, and doesn't let the "big boys" weasle out of their positions, or worse, take a stance on BOTH sides of an issue so they can hedge their bets and later say "I said that would happen" when they ALSO said, "It won't happen"...
For some reason, at the time, I was under the impression that he was also a reporter, but have since found out he's not, and doesn't claim to be one.
Good thread, very thought provocating... and I commend you for ACTUALLY being "thought provoking"... usually I've found that people that CLAIM to be "Thought Provoking" are actually just being @$$holes and using "Thought Provoking" as an excuse... It's refreshing to see someone be "Thought Provoking" and have a really good insight, and accurate information... Kudos.
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..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?
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Quote:
Originally posted by CattleorCatalyst:
(Snip) One last thing, in response to some of our Conservative friends. Y'all have consistently stated that Conservatives, Right-Wingers, whatever you want to call 'em, support a decrease in government activity in the lives of its citizens. Yet, as Shiny so eloquently stated, it was the Conservatives, not the Democrats, who wanted to tell Terry Shiavo's husband what to do and take away his freedom of choice. It was the Republicans, not the Democrats, who prevented women from voting, African Americans from becoming full-fledged citizens, oppose allowing women the right to have an abortion, oppose the right of homosexuals to marry, and the list goes on. In each of these instances, the Republicans involve the government in our lives and the Democrats try to protect our rights, and our independence, by keeping the government out.
Actually, That whole issue (Terry Shiavo) made me angry... I'm a Libertarian, so BOTH "Parties" usually end up making me angry... that was the Shiavo's business, no one else's.
Fed-Gov needs to STAY OUT of our lives.. if it's not hurting anyone else, then it's none of our (or anyone else's) business.
Personally, What people do on their own property (and ESPECIALLY in their own homes) is ABSOLUTELY none of my business.. "The Gay Issue" is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned, again, none of my business... I can't have a baby, so I don't see why I should even have an opinion on Abortion or women's issues, So I keep my personal feelings to myself on those matters also (However, if you have any excess babies, I'll be happy to take 'em, as would MANY other Families that love children).
We need more than the "Standard two parties", "Bad and Worse", to choose from... they are the same animal by a different name anyway. "The lesser of two evils is still Evil" (You can quote me on that come election time ;)
And to go futher, I think we oughta legalize ALL drugs, and sell them at the ABC store like Alcohol, with the same taxes on them.. that would put drug gangs out of business INSTANTLY... when was the last time anyone heard of an "Alcohol gang"? Or an Alcohol-addict breaking into homes to support his habit? As long as they do it at home and don't drive, it's their business if they want to destroy their lives with Drugs OR alcohol... We could funnel all that "Anti-drug money" into free treatment centers (For those that want it), AND into the war on Terrorism, And STILL save a few billion dollars a year, PLUS make money from the sale of legalized drugs.. there'd be MUCH less need for Police, and MUCH less excuse for government to poke into our lives (Those last two points is why they'll never legalize drugs BTW)
But that's just me, Your Milage May Vary ;)
In the setting of "FireFly" it looks as though they don't have laws about guns, drugs, or much of anything else for that matter (At least not "Out in the black" or on the fringe worlds).. and that's the way it SHOULD be in my opinion.
"Anytime someone says, 'there oughtta be a law', then there probably oughtn't"
Sorry, I got off on a tangent rant.. But I agree with you on the "Democrat versus Republican" issue.. so I stepped off that bus and found a third party I COULD agree with.. it DOES take some time to get used to thinking as "A Free Man", and to stay out of other people's lives... but once you do, it's liberating ;)
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..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?
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