The Sorrows Of Empire by Chalmers Johnson
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Saturday, September 5, 2026 02:32
VIEWED: 6083
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I haven't read that book, but Blowback makes somewhat the same case. American imperialism dates waaaay back. I dunno, how far back to do want to go? Manifest Destiny (1840s) in which we acquired the Oregon Territory, the Texas Annexation, and the Mexican Cession (Mexican War 1847)? The Spanish American War in which we acquired Cuba, Guam, the Phillipines, and Puerto Rico (1898)? The establishment of banana republics (Jamaica, Columbia, Santa Domingo, Guatemala, Panama, and Nicaragua) throughout South and Central America?
Yes there is something systemically wrong, but not ALL nations become imperial.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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All too true, and I suspect many won't see it coming, even with warning.
So many in the U.S. stay fooled and in comfortable submission (See: Hero and AURaptor for example).
I suspect AUraptor is waking up to the reality, I don't imagine Hero will.
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I fear our only hope is the pseudo-neo-cons continual pressing for war, the body count will shut them down eventually, sad to say...
I don't think so. I think that as long as our press lies about numbers for them, it won't be an issue. I heard a lot of under the table data on Katrina, and I know we way underestimated the casualties there, mostly by not including the homeless because they had no registered address. Lebanon is being under-rated, as is the toll in Iraq (we have numbers of confirmed KIAs with identified bodies, that's much less than US soldiers killed, and doesn't include allied Iraqi soldier deaths.)
Overall, I suspect what will hurt them is they are their own worst enemy. These guys are neither brilliant nor masterful, in fact their above avg. know it alls who think they're brilliant, and only borderline competent. Their only real skills are in defeating a discreet system and covering their own tracks. This is very typical of a particular type of person.
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"We are defined by our enemies" is crap. We define ourselves with our own actions. How much longer will it take until peeps absorb this?
People are stupid, and getting stupider.
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"For God Damn ever, bitch! That's how long! That's how long!" Chrisisall
Yeah, I think that's the one.
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Quote:No. But I understand it is a story of American "imperialism" and the International Jew. It's probably right up most of your allies, actually. I think I’m going to wait for the next Terry Brooks novel.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Anyone here read it? I just skimmed it (My FIL brought a copy over w/him) and BOY does it seem like something we should all take a good look at....
Especially 'some of us'Chrisisall
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Casual
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*ahem* ...getting out my favorite soapbox...
HmmHmm!
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If the US is acting imperially (and not having read the book, I'm not commenting one way or the other) and if it has been doing so at least since the Gulf War I (at least, I assume that that's the "Gulf War" Chris referred to above), then America's imperialist ambitions are more deeply seated than the current neo-con government.
Not necessarily so. The neocon revolution was Watergate, and neocons have been building a base in washington ever since. It was Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld in the Bush 41 admin. who is alleged to have created the situation by misleading Saddam into thinking that the US would not respond to an invasion of Kuwait. It was Cheney having a huge fight with 41 about invading Iraq. Dick said, 'you've got half a million men on the border, just give the order' or something like that. And 41 said "no way, the world would hate us if we become the aggressor." It was Dick Cheney and co. who supported Clinton in the '92 democratic campaign, and in exchange got Halliburton and Halliburton got the job of the old Quartermaster's Corps, under Clinton's military restructuring.
So, Bush and co has to at least include Cheney, and by extension Clinton.
But I was actually suggesting the US was an empire of states, and not a coalition of them, and has been since the constitution replaced the articles of confederation in 1789, which, imho, was a mistake (and a conspiracy of the federalists, who themselves were almost as much of an isolated think tank as these guys)
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Truth to tell, Bush and Co. are certainly responsible for contributing to the situation (given that they were in the halls of power when the opportunity for a war rolled around), but they haven't done it single-handedly.
Depends how large the company is.
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I'm of the opinion that our entire political system is broken in some way (electoral college, campaign finance, racial issues, the two-party system--take your pick).
Here you are spot on. It's been broken for a while. I think it ran aground in 1960 when Kennedy was allowed to steal the election from Dick Nixon, and it's been a cheat and steal govt. in part ever since. But our democracy, if it is a democracy (technically I believe in ancient greece a democracy was where elected officials argued for the peoples positions, which were decided by referendum, and the system where the elected officials choose the positions as we have was called oligarchy.)
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It's not that Republicans are pure evil and the country would be steaming nicely twoard Utopia if only Gore had gone to the White House. It's that there's something wrong at a systemic level. Can anyone tell me if this book addresses that? Because I'm far more interested in critical analysis than in a partisan rant.
Certainly not. I'm not saying republicans are pure evil for obvious reasons. Democrats I'm not so sure about, but I'll drop that for the moment. But Gore had Lieberman as a VP, possibly the most hawkish zionist on the hill. It's hard to credit that we wouldn't be in the same mess we are today (outside of the global warming issue, and possibly spending.)
My own analysis leads me to believe that govts. have a limited lifespan, of about a human lifespan.
A look at Athenian democracy which lasted 77 years before the war, at which point the system had essentially droven over the edge and was no longer functioning. This is roughly the same as Spartan communism, (depends where you measure, but the system was fully established by 450bc, and began to crumple in 371, so 79 years) or Soviet communism, 72 years. It's also similar to the span of the United States from the signing of the constitution until the civil war is 72 years.
If there's a theory here, it's that a system of govt. has about the same lifespan as a person, which is probably no accident. It would make sense that as long as the youngers of the crowd who set it up were still around to be elders, that the system would fu
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DT, you must read Twilight of American Culture by Morris Berman. Berman argues that America is on the verge of cultural collapse, and though he does not argue from the causes, his analysis of the trends of cultural collapse (increasing gap between rich and poor, loss of true education and all that that entails, dwindling return on institutional solutions to problems, and what he calls "the emptying out of culture" into kitsch) are spot-on, and quite chilling. He predicts cultural death to be replaced by a consumerist/corporate oligarchy (the beginnings of which can be detected in businesses like Wal-Mart). Fantastic read.
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I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.
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Finn,
Unless you have a specific allegation against chalmers as an anti-semite, which I think is a stretch, can the coutner-PC. The 'everyone who disagrees with me is a racist' got real old a long time ago when the left was doing it. I recognize the same B^!!$#!+ when Bush and co. pull is. I already debunked the idea that neocon=jew and I would be happy to do it again.
Casual,
Thanks for the tip. I actually have Bork's Slouching Towards Gomorrah stacked up by my bed as a next read. It's a Clinton era ultra-right look at the decline. If anyone has read it and wants to recommend or dis-recommend, go ahead. I find it time to fit all these in. I wish books were like pages, get everyone's basic take, click for more details.
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DT- we believe essentially the same things regarding our establishment; you may actually know more then me since i havent focused on it as intently as in i used to...i just took it and ran from there. but heres what i want to know from you: im sure you know that the Illumaniti was established in 1776; what is your take on these secretive, satanic organisations and their influence in America(seeing as how freemasonry can be proven to be Luciferian), since so many prominant elitists are affiliated with them? and what in your opinion is the goal of the Federalists(agenda)?
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Quote:Poor Finn. He just can't stop racial profiling no matter what. It's a reflex!
But I understand it is a story of American "imperialism" and the International Jew.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Orignally posted by antimason:
DT- we believe essentially the same things regarding our establishment; you may actually know more then me since i havent focused on it as intently as in i used to...i just took it and ran from there. but heres what i want to know from you: im sure you know that the Illumaniti was established in 1776; what is your take on these secretive, satanic organisations and their influence in America(seeing as how freemasonry can be proven to be Luciferian), since so many prominant elitists are affiliated with them? and what in your opinion is the goal of the Federalists(agenda)?
antimason,
Actually, it's a little more complicated than that. The Illuminati is circa 1400 or so, about 200 years after the Masons began (they don't date back to Solomon, that's a myth, they were founded in 13th c. florence i believe.) The Illuminati was founded by masonic orders knights templars, etc. to organize to destroy the catholic churches iron grip on power over europe. It's a matter of perspective. If you look at life in the middle ages, the king was increasingly subserviant to the bishops, who answered to rome. The idea that the masons were anti-christian comes from the RCC, but it wasn't necessarily so. Some masons were undoubtedly pagans, but many were devout christians who opposed Rome. Roman Catholicism itself is historically, no offense to anyone, a corruption. Rome had a vested interest in hijacking christianity as a means of controlling their own population. So the govt. of rome took over the roman orthodox, through conversion, and then outlawed all others, and the church-state union was born.
The Illuminati, or enlightened, were quite strong at one point. They believed firmly in a seperation of church and state, and were widely persecuted for it by the inquisition. (The roman inquisition, not the spanish inquisition, who persecuted ethnic groups) The conflict ended with the reformation, (the christian illuminati faction) and the renaissance (the pagan illuminati faction).
By 1776, this was all old hat, and the first nation of the separation of church and state, being US, was already a reality. Adam Weishaupt is far more of a footnote to history that the conspiracists give him credit for. His organization, the Bavarian Illuminati, was formed that same year, and disbanded a few years later when the baron arrested all of its members including Weishaupt. (c. 1780 something)
In 1832, William Henry Russell, who was an opium smuggler with ports in Istanbul and near Saigon, was studying in a german university under a professor who had a fondness for Weishaupts idea. Russell picked up the notion, and came here to create a new illuminati which he called Phi Beta Kappa. There were many spin off organizations we call frats, and sororities. He realized that Phi Beta Kappa was nowhere near secret enough (nor was weishaupts organizaion, hence the arrests) so he created skull and bones. For quite some time, S+B was engaged in drug trafficking, but they have since moved on (or expanded) into education, pharmaceuticals and media. Time Warner, minus the Warner, and CBS/Viacom, both parts, were created in S+B secret meetings.
Secret societies have been a european tradition for thousands of years. This is hardly a new thing. The historical precedents for Merlin, etc. were known to have secret societies. open society is actually not our tradition. The Masons are far from satanic, even the KKK, in its various incarnations, is not satanic. Satanic is almost an absurd identifier.
The Masons are more or less a dead organization. If you travel the country you see vacant halls everywhere. It's experienced a decline and fall lately. This happens to secret organizations when they become not secret. S+B is undoubtedly as good as dead now. I think I've said much of this before.
I'm not sure which Federalist agenda you mean, the old one or the new one. The new one is essentially socialist/trotsky communist, and essentially wants to rule the world. The old one wanted to be king of america essential
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Quote:International WHO?
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
No. But I understand it is a story of American "imperialism" and the International Jew. It's probably right up most of your allies, actually.
That is not a componant of this book, I believe.
Are you denying the imperialist nature of the U.S. as patterned after the British Empire, which was patterned after the Roman Empire, which was patterned after....etc.?
The Chrisisall Strikes Back
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