Brave New World
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Sunday, August 20, 2006 02:27
VIEWED: 5573
PAGE 2 of 5
Okay, and here's where it all gets tough. I'm goign to answer Soupcatchers quesiton, but first I have to praise Bush (omfg, right?) I've criticized his admin enough, that I'm on the anti-side. (and yes citizen, and everyone, it's okay to go with a near Bush, I think I said Bush and co, and that includes Tony Blair, and also Paul Wolfowitz and people like that.)
I think that the war on terror has won some victories off the battlefield with terrorists in Libya and Ireland sheathing the sword. I think there was a rumor that this was coming along in Spain as well. So, Bravo, well done.
The motivation of this thread is that the divide is too great, and we should really only debate our key disagreements and not just which side is right. No one has a monopoly on answers.
What I find most curious that I really didn't expect, is I find people's counter-party opinions (on both sides) actually more interesting then the party line stuff which is usually spouted. I think this thread could spawn whole new subthreads on topics such as "are vigilantes out of control?" or "How creepy is the whole religious thing?"
And this is not a contest, just everyone think how much of a concession is theirs relative to the others, so the whole thing doesn't get too lopsided.
I'm actually not so worried it's going to distract into total war as I am that people will have trouble coming up with them. I think that from any perspective, there still are a fairly large number of things, esp. when you include the whole crew. For instance, I know Scalia just did something democrats would approve of, I think that's close enough.
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Let's see... I'll start with a Bush compliment, then talk about Iraq and stuff (since it was mentioned above, and it relates to Bush).
The fact that Bush responded after 9/11 = good (are we supposed to do something that no one's mentioned? If so, I got nothing).
Whew! Okay, now that that's done, it's time to move on.
That whole, "Let's give the gift of Democracy to the Iraqis" has been both silly and mismanaged. No one can just give a country the workings of democracy and expect it to hold - especially when the Middle East has no real history of democracy. Sure, America is a 'democracy (or, at least, people would like it to be),' but that's because we can trace history back to the Romans.
That's all I have to say about this, because a) I have little to no desire to seek out more information, and b)I can't think of anything else good that Dubya has done.
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Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!
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Quote:The peace process in Ireland had nothing to do with the Bush administration.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think that the war on terror has won some victories off the battlefield with terrorists in Libya and Ireland sheathing the sword. I think there was a rumor that this was coming along in Spain as well. So, Bravo, well done.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Dreamtove:
I'm usually a Lurker and only add my two cents ocassionally, but this is a great topic and had to chime in. Thanks for starting it.
I'm pretty conservative and generally support Bush, but as most conservatives these days, I have some fundamental problems with the administration.
I guess my single biggest problem with Bush and company is their complete and utter inability to recognize, admit, and take corrective action when they make mistakes. Whether it be Katrina, Iraq strategy, or whatever. Now, I understand the reluctance to admit a mistake given todays political climate, but that's no excuse for blind refusal of the obvious.
I have to give Bush and company good marks on their clear recognition of the threat represented by global terrorism, and their steadfastness in trying to do something about it. We can debate their methods in another thread, but I think many of the President's opponents are completely oblivious to the threat and are too willing to undermine the effort while proclaiming a tacit desire to stop it.
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"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."
---Napoleon Bonaparte
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Anti-Bush
Good:
Something good Bush has done...........................................still thinking...............................oh, I got one! He accepted the resignation of that loon, John Ashcroft. Anyone recall him draping a curtain over the breasts of the Lady of Justice statue, before he gave a press conference in front of it? So, yeah. I would have to say that was definitely a positive move for the President.
Bad:
Bush replaced Ashcroft with Gonzalez. A man who believes it's alright to torture, and who appears intent on errording our civil liberties. I don't know. Maybe Ashcroft wasn't that bad after all.
But to be fair, Bush has done a couple of good things. He refused to brand Islam as a violent religion, or all Muslims as terrorists. Also, he proposed a temporary work permit for Mexican laborers. Yeah, that's about it. But that's completely overshadowed by an endless list of bad things he has done.
"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell
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First,
I thank Bush for withdrawing the Harriet Miers nomination.
Citizen,
I disagree. The IRA's announcement to migrate to political life came just days after the US squashed some terrorist or other. I think they thought about it and didn't want to be next on the list.
Yin yang,
I don't think having a history of democracy has much to do with it. I think they're handling it just fine. They elected Ahmadinejad, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the new iraqi alliance all of whom seem to want us out of the ME, which supports their constituents wishes. We're not doing so well over here. We seem to elect people who don't represent us, and do what suits them. Maybe democracy has a life span, and ours is shuffling off to the cursing home.
But in general, and this wasn't the original intention of the thread, but it's turning out well, so I want to stick to it, let's try to stick to some counter-intuitive discussions that might cross our own natural positions. (after all, all other threads are devoted to us ranting our party lines) Let's try to keep in the spirit of the thread. It can be about batman for all I care, but party-line crossfire here will serve to destroy the idea, and we should try to keep from doing that.
Razza
Thanks. I've been amazed at Bush's reluctance to admit a mistake, even when it's politically expedient to do so, but this thread is making me begin to understand why that happens. Most of us are a little afraid to let our guard down lest we be attacked. I think Bush is over his head, I don't think there's a question of that, he's not a man with a resume that screams 'president' and so he's a little less secure about letting his guard down than most of us, which is also understandable. But I agree, it does sometimes defy reason.
I'm not oblivious to the threat of terrorism, btw, I jsut think it's been exaggerated for political gain. I also don't think the Bush crowd is the only ones doing it. I've notices that some of Bush's chief opponents in congress (not just members of the team as I call it, ie. lieberman, hillary, but regular democrats) are making much of the imminent threat that I don't think is that strong. I also think our media is in love with the idea because it loves trauma. Baby's arms cut off, big news everywhere, baby's arms sewn back on, not such big news.
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Okay, another Bush compliment (I found one, I found one): he managed to get himself re-elected.
Dreamtrove:
I agree with the 'we're not doing so good ourselves' sentiment. Of course, it would help if we were an actual democracy, instead of a republic deomcracy (or whatever it's being called these days).
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Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!
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I'm neither for nor against Bush. He is insignificant. 
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Yin Yang
Bush, who did actually try to privatize social security, is just the latest result in a series of mis-steps. Actually, if this were a republic, and not a democracy, I think it would work a lot better.
Oh No! I think we just hit the quintessential Democrat vs. Republican argument!
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Quote:The Bush administration had nothing to do with the peace process in Ireland.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I disagree. The IRA's announcement to migrate to political life came just days after the US squashed some terrorist or other. I think they thought about it and didn't want to be next on the list.
The Bush administration had nothing to do with the peace process in Ireland.
It was the end of along lengthy process and had nothing to do with the IRA getting scared over the possibility of the US coming to 'kick their ass'.
Firstly most administrations wouldn't even lift a finger to prevent US citizens funding the IRA, so by no stretch of the imagination can you believe that the Bush administration would lend military support to the British government.
I'd also be surprised if the British government would accept, what could you guys do exactly? Launch cruise missiles at Dublin?
If any recent American president did anything for the peace process in Ireland it was Clinton who helped get both sides around a bargaining table, which is where and how the process started.
The IRA afraid of what the Bush administration might do, that's really quite amusing.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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