A question for those of you who support Israel....

POSTED BY: STDOUBT
UPDATED: Sunday, March 8, 2026 23:09
VIEWED: 8531
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HERO

Friday, August 11, 2006 1:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by STDOUBT:
Is defending Israel worth a third world war, and
if so, why?

I think your simple little question has a very complex answer. This question has been asked since the end of World War II.

Is Isreal worth WW3? What about Taiwan, South Korea, or Western Europe? Afganistan, Czechoslavkia, Tibet, Vietnam...they were not worth it.

The answer is no. What is Jerusalem worth? Nothing. Everything. Where is the line and what awaits us on the other side?

I am a free man, a citizen of a free nation. We are a nation founded upon the principals of liberty for all and washed in the blood of millions who have died trying to make that liberty universal for all of our citizens and all the citizens of the world.

Lincoln wrote: "Let us have faith that right makes might, and that in faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."

So to answer your question, I think Ronald Reagan summed it up best on a brisk January morning in 1981:

Quote:

As for the enemies of freedom, those who are potential adversaries, they will be reminded that peace is the highest aspiration of the American people. We will negotiate for it, sacrifice for it; we will not surrender for it -- now or ever. Our forbearance should never be misunderstood. Our reluctance for conflict should not be misjudged as a failure of will. When action is required to preserve our national security, we will act. We will maintain sufficient strength to prevail if need be, knowing that if we do so, we have the best chance of never having to use that strength.

In the present conflict there has been the misjudgement of American character that Reagan warns our enemies against...its a misjudgement by those who plot against us and a misjudgement by persons, many our own people, who sell themselves and their nation short for the uncertain coin of political opportunism.

We must meet aggression with defense, terror with resolution, and tyranny with liberty. We fight for our friends because failing to do so does not make the world better or America safer. Defeating the enemies of America on ground of our choosing does accomplish those goals. Thats why its worth the fight you so greatly fear.

H

CITIZEN

Friday, August 11, 2006 2:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
tyranny with liberty

Are you saying that curbing individual freedoms and privacy to combat tyranny is wrong?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

HERO

Friday, August 11, 2006 2:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
[BAre you saying that curbing individual freedoms and privacy to combat tyranny is wrong?

We are a nation of laws.

Reason or reasonableness is a check on both the power of the state and the rights of the individual. Even the Constitution allows for the limitation of individual rights for a compelling governmental interest.

Edited to add: However this is a discussion of if and why and to what extent America must honor its commitments to its allies around the world. If you want to argue the nature of American liberty or the Hobbes vs. Locke issues, maybe we need a different thread.

H

KANEMAN

Friday, August 11, 2006 3:57 PM

This would never escalate into a third world war. At least I hope not. I think America has to defend Israel at all costs. Let's just hope the price isn't very high. We helped create a lot of this mess and have to take responsibility. I'm just not sure there is a way for this region to resolve these disputes without bloodshed. As in Iraq these parties have consistently shown no desire to peacefully co-exist. Every now and then (as with unruly children that don't get along) the adults have to stand back and let the two have at it. Usually solves the problem. Winner takes all....Loser gets North Dakota(No Idaho Thread).

0

SIGNYM

Friday, August 11, 2006 4:55 PM

It's too bad the UN didn't create Israel in the Poconos. Everyone would have been much happier.

So the UN effed up big time when it gave land that was already inhabited to a bunch of Jews that nobody wanted in Europe and especially not in Britain. And the Jews effed up when instead of sending over 400,000 they flooded the area with several million. Not that I blame them... If I'd just been massacred (with BTW the help of those poor victimized Poles) and whipped from pillar to post in Europe while nobody lifted a finger to help, I'd prolly want a place to call my own, too.

But it's insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over ... play whack-a-mole with Muslims... and expect different results. I'm not sure this war can be won ONLY militarily. The only kind of "peace" that you get at the end of THAT road is the peace of the graveyard.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

SIGNYM

Friday, August 11, 2006 5:39 PM

BTW- It's possible to be against the State of Israel without being an "anti-Semite" (which technically refers to ALL people of Semitic origin) or even a "Jew hater". It's called being an "anti-Zionist".

Quote:
Zionism is... a political movement ... that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Another BTW- the reason why I brought up Poland's complicity in the Holocaust is to make the point that one can be both victim AND victimizer. Being a victim- as Israeli Jews and Palestinians both see themselves - does not absolve either party when they are victimizers.

Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

DREAMTROVE

Friday, August 11, 2006 10:26 PM

Auraptor

I don't accept the definition of Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. I think it's a political party. Anytime we can call a political party in another country a terrorist organization we are claiming a right to global domination. What's to stop us from defining Sinn Fein the same way? And then what? The LibDems? This is insane, and it has to stop yesterday.

Hamas and Hezbollah are people with whom I have some disagreements, but that's really not what's at issue here. If anyone else had issues with them, they could support opposition candidates. Anything above that is way out of line.

Palestine is a political entity recognized by the majority of govts, and almost the entirety of the people of Earth. Therefore, it does exist. It consists of the west bank and gaza.

Israel wants not only to own lebanon, but syria as well, and I suspect only two points of view are really going to openly disagree with that, the ignorant and the dishonest. I suspect that you not only know it to be true, but support the position.

The real name for this war should be the 29th crusade. It's a sobering thought that the first "mission of colonial exploration" to the ME started only 30 years after the last crusade ended. In fact, there has never been an interval of a human lifetime in which the west has not launched a crusade against the people of the middle east since. In fact, it would probably hold going back to the time of mohammed.

I thought it curious, in fact stikingly so, that the neocons of the forum had shed any pretense of being politically motivated be a desire to better the lives of muslims and had fallen back an lunatic jesus ravings. Yhwh, God of War, has shown his true face.

DREAMTROVE

Friday, August 11, 2006 10:40 PM

Quote:
This would never escalate into a third world war. At least I hope not. I think America has to defend Israel at all costs. Let's just hope the price isn't very high. We helped create a lot of this mess and have to take responsibility. I'm just not sure there is a way for this region to resolve these disputes without bloodshed. As in Iraq these parties have consistently shown no desire to peacefully co-exist. Every now and then (as with unruly children that don't get along) the adults have to stand back and let the two have at it. Usually solves the problem. Winner takes all....Loser gets North Dakota(No Idaho Thread).

What criteria do you for a third world war?
The war is already on.
Twenty five nations in the region are now at war on a chirsitan vs muslim level and the death toll is already over ten million, when you add all said conflicts together (To make this point, I would mention that east africa is definitely part of this conflict, the pro-western segments are funded and armed by the US and other western powers, the pro-islam factions are armed and trained by actual Alqaeda higherups, with Zawahiri and Bin Laden actually being present at times.) Even among arabs alone the total death toll is over 2 million since the gulf war. Add in Iraq-Iran as an auxillary part of the conflict and you can add another million. Add in the muslim-christian conflict in yugoslavia, where al quaeda and america were involved (concurrent with the iraq campaigns of the 90s) and you can add at least another million.

World War Three is raging at high flame, it's just not in your back yard. If you had sat out in Cedar Rapids Iowa in WWI and WWII it would look like a cool breeze. But I'll bet you over in Beirut and Tyre it's looking a lot like WWIII today. In fact, the theater of christian-muslim warfare is a land area four times the size of Europe, and with a population exceeding that of Europe, and with a total number of armed combatants who have exchanged fire in a military muslim-christian conflict in excess of 20 million.

So, in all seriousness, what exactly is it going to take for this meet the standards of a world war?

MISBEHAVEN

Friday, August 11, 2006 11:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DukKati:

I almost forgot my solution for over crowded prisons. . . put them "GANGSTAS" and the rest up front also then we shall see who's "BAAAD". They be to busy trying to keep their pants up to fight soooooo....

Wow, DukKati! Talk about showing your arse. Do you have any other racist, stereotypical bull

you'd like to share?

Quote:
Originally posted by DukKati:

That should solve the over crowded prison issue.

Yeah, of course, because there's no other types of people in prison.

Quote:
Well ... I know my knower works . . .

I'm not so sure it does.

Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

MISBEHAVEN

Friday, August 11, 2006 11:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by STDOUBT:

Is defending Israel worth a third world war, and
if so, why?

Well, Israel is an ally of the U.S., and that itself means we're to provide aid if needed. So, unless we sever our relationship with them, then I don't see how to avoid sending aid in all its varying forms. The problem I personally have with the U.S. and Israel relationship, is that the U.S. seems to have adopted the position that Israel is infallible with respect to how they address terrorism. The bombing campaign that's being carried out in Lebanon is killing a significantly high number of innocent civilians. Furthermore, it is in direct violation of parts of the Geneva convention: intentional targeting of civilians, fleeing refugees, infrastructure etc.. The Bush administration should have came out quickly and denounced these tactics, but they didn't. The result will be more moderate Muslims driven to embrace radical Islam in order to fight the U.S. and Israel. In effect, they're literally breeding more terrorists. To say nothing of the fact that Israel is no safer now than it was before its incursion into and bombing of Lebanon. The number of rockets being launched into Israel is not decreasing, it's increasing.

Quote:
Bonus question:
Why is anyone who criticizes Israel, its military or its actions labelled an anti-semite?

This is something I've never understood either. I've often been critical of Israel and I frequently get that "you're an anti-semite" (usually from Christians) stuff said to me when I do (this remains a great irony to me, as some of my best friends are Jewish and they too do not always agree with the Israeli approach). People need to recognize that Israel is not infallible. They're as capable as anyone of committing atrocities, exercising bad judgemnet, failures in diplomacy etc.. Just before the war in Lebanon broke out, Israelis dropped a couple of artillery rounds onto a beach in Gaza, during one of its busiest times of the year. I forget the number of civilians (men, women, and children) that were killed, but they were only people out to enjoy a day at the beach with their families. Israel did not receive a word of condemnation from the U.S. about this. Again, this imbalanced approach to the problems between Israel and others in the Middle East is only exacerbating the situation, not helping to resolve it.

Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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