Get real. If someone was shooting rockets into your house trying to kill you...
POSTED BY: DukKati
UPDATED: Monday, August 14, 2006 05:43
VIEWED: 13192
PAGE 13 of 15
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Originally posted by citizen:Quote:No I'm saying you're biased with Israel, if Israel says it or it supports them it must be true, otherwise it must be false.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Yes. More likely to believe and assume it is correct than a report from Hezbollah. What are you going for here Citizen? You want me to say I am biased towards terrorists? Well I believe I stated earlier that I am.
If Israel says it or it supports them I am more willing to believe it and support it than if Hezbollah says it or it supports them. When did I say Israel True all others False?
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Quote:They've had plenty of chances to investigate similar incidents and they either don't or they brush it under the carpet, why are they so determined not to allow the UN in on the investigation if they plan on doing it properly?
So you are saying that you do not trust the Israeli's to investigate on their own? Why don't you give them a chance and see what happens.
The UN has taken a more biased stand regarding the Middle East than perhaps they should have. 4 UN soldiers were killed, can the UN keep the investigation unbiased? And if so, will the Israeli's trust the UN? Besides, if Israel tries to sweep it under the rug the UN can always launch their own investigation.
Quote:Quote:I have really no idea what you're going on about here since you're stating things that support my argument as if they refute it.
Many of those rockets you admited to see fall harmlessly in the desert. I guess Israel's propaganda war is not up to par yet with Hezbollah's.
Sorry to sneak that in there to confuse you. That was my attempt to show the Israeli's may be more even handed. Why show missles missing their targets? Why not just broadcast the civilian hits?
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Do you just not understand these things or are you deliberately twisting it around? Israel can't get away with inflating casualty reports as much as you say they would have too, because no one in their right mind would believe that Hezbollah's antiquated equipment would be capable of inflicting comparable damage on Israel as Israel’s state of the art can inflict on Lebanon, it's really quite obvious. So no, Israel not saying "Three hundred dead from Hezbollah rockets" is not proof they aren't using propaganda.
Fair enough. Let's look at this from another angle. You seem to enjoy picking apart my examples as to why I think Israel is using less propaganda than Hezbollah. Why don't you give me some examples as to why you think Israel is using just as much propaganda as Hezbollah. Recent examples mind you. Don't just re-hash the whole nuclear secrets spy thing or the U.S.S. Liberty thing.
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And the rockets that fall harmlessly to the desert are Hezbollah’s not Israel’s, that’s something that was stated quite clearly.
Glad you cleared that up, though I was unaware that it needed to be.
Quote:Quote:Bullshit. You are assuming that because they are unbiased they can't be wrong...
It's amazing how you can twist one's argument by taking things out of context. I admited earlier that there were different reasons for differing civilian casualty rates.
I said the least biased IMHO would have the best chance at not being wrong.
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The only way a biased source can change it's data in a way that wouldn't equally effect a biased source is by doctoring it.
Biased source more likely to doctor.
Un-biased source less likely to doctor.
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Well frankly I'm getting tired of you making obvious accusations phrased just so, then saying "no I didn't!" If you want to continue this discussion please keep it relevant and cut the bitchy schoolgirl crap.
Where have I heard this before? Oh yeah, I said it. A little less personally though.
De-lurking to stir stuff up.
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Quote:Israel dropped the bombs, can Israel keep the investigation unbiased? And if so, will/can the UN trust Israel? It's not like the UN can conduct it's own investigation without Israeli cooperation.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
4 UN soldiers were killed, can the UN keep the investigation unbiased? And if so, will the Israeli's trust the UN? Besides, if Israel tries to sweep it under the rug the UN can always launch their own investigation.
Quote:Enemies incompetence? Besides it's not like it's Israel that's releasing all this information is it? Most of the sources for information are nothing to do with either Lebanon, Hezbollah and Israel, yet you *seem* to want to paint the only sources that are worth listening to as those that support Israel.
Sorry to sneak that in there to confuse you. That was my attempt to show the Israeli's may be more even handed. Why show missles missing their targets? Why not just broadcast the civilian hits?
Quote:Remember how this line of debate started, specifically with a statement that seemed to suggest that because one guy had doctored to photos more information on the Lebanese side can be brought into question. I believe my original statement was that this brings Israeli information as much into question as Lebanese.
Fair enough. Let's look at this from another angle. You seem to enjoy picking apart my examples as to why I think Israel is using less propaganda than Hezbollah. Why don't you give me some examples as to why you think Israel is using just as much propaganda as Hezbollah. Recent examples mind you. Don't just re-hash the whole nuclear secrets spy thing or the U.S.S. Liberty thing.
Quote:Great so are we on the same page now? That doctoring is the only thing a biased source is effected by that an unbiased source is not is doctoring? Which was what I said in the first place.
Biased source more likely to doctor.
Un-biased source less likely to doctor.
Quote:I'm sorry about that, you ticked me off by accusing me of twisting your words when I'm doing nothing of the sort is all.
Where have I heard this before? Oh yeah, I said it. A little less personally though.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Yeah yeah yeah... I gots no edumacation sos I cant writ long wordid thangs. One thang is I can shoot the eyes outa knat from 700 yards. I knowed them jew people are My Gods chosen folks and he said "You like them and I likes you. You go screwin wid'em and I spank that ass of yern."
Most times I be thinkin thats whats got some folks up in arms.
Anyhoo my rifle an mes bout all I gots ta give ta help them Jew people.
Sos yall makea list of who wants onea them hesbolas put down for'em and when I gets over thar I do my best ta getcha one each.
OH by the way 700 yards is on them bigole bullknats not them damnedable muleknats. I gots ta get widin 500 yards for them.
I've been through the system.
It don't work.
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Yeah yeah yeah... I gots no edumacation sos I cant writ long wordid thangs. One thang is I can shoot the eyes outa knat from 700 yards. I knowed them jew people are My Gods chosen folks and he said "You like them and I likes you. You go screwin wid'em and I spank that ass of yern."
Most times I be thinkin thats whats got some folks up in arms.
Anyhoo my rifle an mes bout all I gots ta give ta help them Jew people.
Sos yall makea list of who wants onea them hesbolas put down for'em and when I gets over thar I do my best ta getcha one each.
OH by the way 700 yards is on them bigole bullknats not them damnedable muleknats. I gots ta get widin 500 yards for them.
DAGNABBIT!!I been hit by that thing that makes ya post mor'n one time.
I've been through the system.
It don't work.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:That's the kicker, in order to call Hezbollah terrorists all we need do is say they're targeting civilians (not arguing that they aren't BTW), but Israel we have to justify it, but then when we do it's not good enough, when you show evidence they target civilians it's dismissed out of hand, seems fairly biased to me.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Just out of curiousity, what would you accept as "justification" as opposed to mere "accusations"? A secret internal memo? A written policy? A confession from a former PM's memoir? What would you consider to be "solid reasoning"? What would you have to see to convince you that Israel practices terrorism?
Maybe I'm an anti-Semite.
I think I'm with you, from Israeli’s POV they aren't targeting civilians they’re targeting the 'enemy'. Seeing popular attitudes expressed by Israeli youth (while there were cameras present making a documentary, so surely a time they'd moderate their views?) they expressed the idea that all Arabs were terrorists, all Arabs were the enemy. That if a bus load of school children were killed it wouldn't matter because they'd just become terrorists eventually anyway.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
*clears throat..jumps into thread hoping to keep it non-personal*
Are you kidding? Hezbollah has been listed as a terrorist organization by the UN! As far as civilian casualties..Didn't the first attack come from the Lebanese side? Compared to the civilian casualties in WW2, Vietnam, Korea...this whole Mid east thing is a joke...Without civilian casualties there is no pressure on a country to allow this crap to continue! War is hell...ask your grandmother.
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Quote:Just because you believe that something is true, doesn’t mean that I should believe it in the absence of evidence. You’ve not demonstrated that Israelis have anything to gain from following a policy of targeting civilians.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Finn: What do they gain?
CTS: Money. Power. Acting out their hatred. Survival.
Finn: That's nonsense.
CTS: Well, what would convince you?
Finn: Show me what they have to gain.
OK...see, I still don't know what would convince you. Cause I tried showing you what they have to gain, and it wasn't good enough.
First of all, your assertion that Israel as a people holds a policy of targeting civilians to satiate their collective hatred seems to close to an ethnic slur for me to be comfortable with. It sounds too much like the “baby-killing Jew” popularized by the Nazis and currently heavily employed by anti-Semitic groups in the Middle East, like early Americans/British calling Africans savages. This is a circular argument that doesn’t demonstrate anything gained and doesn't sit well with me.
The other part of your argument is based on money from the US. Your claim, essentially, is that Israel holds a policy of targeting civilians because they want defense money from the US, but the US doesn’t want them targeting civilians, so why would Israel decide that defense money from the US is something they would gain for targeting civilians? You could say that they hold a policy of targeting civilians in spite of US sentiment, but not because of it, assuming such a policy exists. You could say they get defense money from the US in spite of their alleged policy of targeting civilians, but not because of it. Even if you assume the US would continue to send money to Israel, they’ve gained nothing, and probably lost some US respect and political favor, which in turn does make it less likely that the money will continue coming in. (In fact, I’m pretty sure they would loose a lot of US political favor.)
And survival? Any policy of targeting civilians will make it more difficult for the US (or anyone) to support Israel, and much easier for Arab states to attack them. How does that secure their survival? In fact, targeting civilians, even unintentionally, has a detrimental effect on Israeli survival, which is why groups like Hezbollah and Hamas work so hard to make sure Israeli collateral damage is so high.
In effect, none of your arguments work. It appears that your willingness to accept tenuous circular reasoning stems from the preconception that Israelis are savages and then, from your point of view, it makes perfect sense that they would lust for human blood in spite of an inability to identify any benefit to Israelis for such blood-lust. Taking the argument without the preconceptions leaves it with little substance, as regardless what you claim, US aid or Israeli survival are not gained by targeting civilians.
For the sake of argument, I considered your reasoning, and it doesn’t work, but I appreciate your responses and your opinion.
Quote:You may not be talking about a policy of targeting civilians, but I am. And in fairness, I don’t believe these accusations can stand without such a criterion. To say that there is a pattern of collateral damage with Israeli attacks could simply mean nothing more then that the military enemies th
Originally posted by canttakesky:
You know, I never said Israel has a "policy" of targeting civilians. I said she is a terrorist state with a PATTERN of targeting civilians. If you wouldn't mind reading my posts again, you'll see that I tried to explain how Israel doesn't make a distinction between military and non-military targets--there is just enemy target. Not making a distinction is what terrorists do--cause if you remember, terrorists think of themselves as freedom fighters in a just war. For them, they are also striking the enemy. The difference between terrorists and other freedom fighters? For terrorists, everyone of "them" is an enemy.
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This never happened!
On mange des glace de toutes les couleur!!
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may i suggest as a motive for targeting civilians, that Israel is provoking WW3 as the final phase of the NWO agenda?
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Quote:Well, it's been nice talking to ya.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
the USS Liberty incident is not unlike many such incidents, including some that the US has perpetuated on itself.
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"Maybe she's a lazy hooker. They can't all have hearts of gold and good work ethics." -- Jaye in Wonderfalls
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Quote:Always a pleasure!
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Well, it's been nice talking to ya.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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