Get real. If someone was shooting rockets into your house trying to kill you...
POSTED BY: DukKati
UPDATED: Monday, August 14, 2006 05:43
VIEWED: 13192
PAGE 10 of 15
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Israel has killed innocent civilians before and people just turn a blind eye because Israel is being attacked by terrorists. Why should we cut Israel slack because they have better equipment, why can we excuse Israel from killing many more civilians than Hezbollah?
I'm certainly not excusing Israel from killing many more civilians than Hezbollah. Innocent civilians are being killed on both sides of the border and it's a tragedy. OTOH, how many of the innocent Lebanese civilians killed to this point were supporters of Hezbollah. Is a civilian who knowingly supports a known terrorist group innocent?
Quote:
During the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland would it have been acceptable for the British to level an Irish village if they believed a terrorist responcible for a bombing may have been there?
of course not Citizen, but comparing the IRA to Hezbollah is like comparing apples to oranges.
De-lurking to stir stuff up.
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Quote:Off the top of my head:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t know that Israel has targeted civilians, and I don’t think you do either. I don’t know that I would put it beyond them, but without a doubt I don’t think Israel is as bad as Hezbollah or Hamas, by a huge margin.
Quote:
April 6 2003. I have been shot at, gassed, chased by soldiers, had sound grenades thrown within metres of me, been hit by falling debris and been in the way of a 10-tonne D-9 that didn't stop. As we approached, I kept expecting a part of my body to be hit by an 'invisible' force and shot of pain. It took a huge amoung of will to continue. I wondered what it would be like to be shot, and strangely I wasn't too scared. It is strange to know that each night people are shot and killed for breaking military curfew, and in the darkness on the north west side there is an Israeli settlement and a few hundred metres away with military snipers in between and any one of the four of us could be being watched through a sniper's sights at this moment. The certainty is that they are watching, and it is in the decision of any one Israeli soldier or settler that my life depends. I know that I'd probably never know what hit me, but it's part of the job to be as visible as possible.
...
On 11 April 2003, just hours after two Palestinian teenagers were shot and killed for no apparent reason, the activists were trying to set up a tent to block the Israeli tanks when shots rang out from a watchtower.
A group of children playing nearby scattered, but three froze in fear. Mr Hurndall rescued a five-year-old boy before running back for two little girls. As he bent down to pick one up, he was hit in the head. He died days before his 21st birthday.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/article357010.ece
(Not the full article unless you're a subscriber, I'll try and find another source).
Quote:striking the area where the missiles were fired from isn't stopping the missiles either. There is still other ways of counterattacking that aren't so indiscriminate.
I’m sure that you want to believe that there is some other military action to counter artillery barrages other then counter-attacking with artillery. It seems very World-War-II-ish. But at the present time, there is no way to shoot down a Katyusha missile.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:The IRA wasn’t armed with long range artillery from Iran. I think some people get the impression that Hezbollah is just some street gang in Beirut. Hezbollah is an organization of 100s of thousands with a military division that is tens of thousands strong. Their leaders sit in the Lebanese parliament. They are financially and militarily backed by Syria and Iran. They are essentially a hidden state within a state. And since they appear to have all the military and political strength with in Lebanon, they are essentially in control of Lebanon. They have all the power of a state, but none of the responsibility, and that makes them very dangerous.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
of course not Citizen, but comparing the IRA to Hezbollah is like comparing apples to oranges.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:And you’ve kind of argued my point for me. This is an article in the Independent about the murder of Tom Hurndall. Who was killed by a former Israeli solider whom was then subsequently prosecuted by an Israeli court and found guilty of murder. It’s kind of intellectually dishonest to attempt to paint Israel as the same Hezbollah, because all you’ve shown me here is some Israelis, like everyone else, commit murder. That’s not the same thing as accusing the Israeli government of targeting civilians. Furthermore, unlike Hezbollah and Hamas, Israel prosecutes people for committing murder.
Originally posted by citizen:
(Not the full article unless you're a subscriber, I'll try and find another source).
Hurndall was actively supporting the Palestinians against the Israeli as a "human shield," so I really have to take the Israeli governments word for it that it was murder at all, because as far as I know, Hurndall was killed in a legitimate military action.
In the end, I’m not saying that Israel hasn’t targeted civilians. I simply don’t know of any case, and once again, you don’t appear to either. However, Hezbollah and Hamas routinely as a matter of policy target civilians or civilian areas. So once again, and finally, Israel, whatever someone wishes to say about their military tactics is better then Hezbollah or Hamas.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Israel is fighting both Hezbollah rockets and Hezbollah propaganda. If the Israeli's response is already considered excessive by most of the world, why doctor photos?
http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsRoom.aspx
Can the Lebanese civilian death tolls be 'doctored' as well?
De-lurking to stir stuff up.
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I know what the article is talking about Finn 
.
The soldier (Sergeant Taysir Hayb) wasn't found guilty of murder, he was found guilty of manslaughter, and only after the family pushed hard for a court hearing that the Israelis didn’t *seem* to want to hold.
You're ignoring the statements made by Hurndall, the fact that according to his statements and the statements of others in the trial including Israeli soldiers that targeting of civilians is common in that area. You're also ignoring the fact that getting that trial was hard work in the first place.
What I mean is Israel seems to prosecute people for committing murder when they have no choice not to. There's other cases where the Israelis haven't held a hearing, for instance:
Cameraman James Miller?
Ian Hook?
Tom Hurndalls father said "Our view is this soldier was doing no more than what was expected of him. It has become very clear to me that shooting civilians was a regular army activity in that area."
I'm not as confident as you that Israeli authorities don't authorise or at least turn a blind eye to the targeting of civilians, and I don't see why we should let them off for that.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
It rooks me to see our money going to folks who have committed terrorist attacks against the UK, and our people, repeatedly in the past, and in every case trying to frame arabic countries for the acts, from the King David Hotel bombing (celebrated as a holiday over there, insultingly) by the Irgun in 1944, to the Lavon Affair, to the attack on the USS Liberty, they have a history of terrorism every bit as bad as any other middle eastern nation.
(And yes, it rooks me to see our money going to OTHER countries guilty of the same.)
THANK YOU, Frem. I've been following along, and I'm on the same page.
I took a summer immersion program on the Arab-Israeli conflict way back in college. We studied history, geography, intercultural communication, political science, everything--including field trips to DC to interview political representatives from various embassies and the UN. I give kudos to the program directors, because they managed to tell both sides of a very, very complicated story--AS WELL AS the usually untold underside of that story (e.g. the events you mentioned above). We learned that what really happened is not nearly the same thing as what officials say happened. Ever since then, I've followed the Mideast conflict as it developed with great interest.
I feel confident supporting the following positions:
1. Israel practices state-sponsored terrorism every bit as much as its enemies in Syria, Libya, Lebanon, etc. Any attempt to portray one side as terrorist, and the other side as the "victim" is unadulterated hypocrisy. There are no "victims" in this war except for the civilians on both sides.
2. Both sides of the conflict have committed horrible, disgusting human rights violations that OUR tax money should not be supporting. If individuals want to donate money to one side or the other, that is their choice. But our collective finances should not be picking a side out of two very ugly sides.
3. Israel has no incentive to compromise towards a resolution until the United States stops supporting her financially or morally. Why stop a war when you're paid several billion dollars a year to be in the war?
4. And gorramit, where do we find the gall to support the government that sank the USS Liberty ($40 million ship), murdered 34 American boys, and wounded 173 others?! http://www.ussliberty.org/
I don't know what Israel or Palestine or Lebanon ought to do. They've dug themselves into a atrocious mess with no end in sight. I only know what WE ought to do.
We need to pull out, and we need to pull out NOW. The Israeli government is a terrorist state, and the USA is, by our own definition, a terrorist state for supporting Israel. The claim that "they started it" doesn't change the fact that Israel, backed by the USA, practices terrorism and violates human rights on a daily basis.
(And in case that "anti-semitic" word rears its ugly head again, I want to say I am actually a Judeophile. I am enchanted by the Jewish culture and religion. I even taught myself Hebrew for a couple of years. That doesn't preclude calling a spade a spade, as Frem says.)
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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"Maybe she's a lazy hooker. They can't all have hearts of gold and good work ethics." -- Jaye in Wonderfalls
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I simply don’t know of any case, and once again, you don’t appear to either.
If you really were open to hearing about a case and not rationalizing it in favor of Israel, there are plenty of examples on the internet. You know how to google and sort out propaganda vs reporting. It's out there, if you really want to find it.
Israel is not stupid. It doesn't just willy nilly attack civilians or even the US military without an explanation for it. People who support Israel call it the rationale behind military strategy, and people who don't support Israel call it an excuse to inflict terror on civilians. And if the story is too terrible to rationalize, I have seen intelligent people deny that it happened, outright.
I've never seen anyone change his/her mind on this issue. I've always respected your views as more objective and well researched than most who post here on RWE. But I doubt that even you will allow for cases contrary to your established positions on Israel.
However, here's to the benefit of the doubt. Just one link from an ISRAELI human rights organization. See what you think. (If you want more, click on Testimonies.)
http://www.btselem.org/english/Special/20060803_Shellig_of_the_village
_of_Qana_in_Lebanon.asp
I'm betting you'll go the rationale route. But I hoping I'll lose money.
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"Maybe she's a lazy hooker. They can't all have hearts of gold and good work ethics." -- Jaye in Wonderfalls
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Quote:You've got from one guy altering two photos he took too everything that contradicts the Israeli accounts as a lie?
Can the Lebanese civilian death tolls be 'doctored' as well?
Maybe the Israeli accounts are all doctored and they just haven't been caught yet?
Adnan Hajj altering of photographs doesn't bring in to question the Lebanese death toll any more than it does the Israeli.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You've got from one guy altering two photos he took too everything that contradicts the Israeli accounts as a lie?
That's one giant leap you just took there Citizen. I used the doctored photos story to illustrate Hezbollah's propaganda campaign which is much more effective than their bombing campaign IMHO.
Quote:
Maybe the Israeli accounts are all doctored and they just haven't been caught yet?
Maybe so, but it is still innocent until proven guilty is it not.
Quote:
Adnan Hajj altering of photographs doesn't bring in to question the Lebanese death toll any more than it does the Israeli.
Let me clarify. If someone is willing to doctor a photo, is it really inconceivable that civilian death tolls could be 'exagerated' as well?
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/02/qana.inquiries/index.html
Even the 'officials' have a hard time agreeing on numbers.
De-lurking to stir stuff up.
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