Real World Event Discussions
Get real. If someone was shooting rockets into your house trying to kill you...
POSTED BY: DukKati
UPDATED: Monday, August 14, 2006 05:43
VIEWED: 13192
PAGE 9 of 15
Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:43 PM
Quote:Israel seems to be targeting Missile batteries, not civilians. Hezbollah seems to be targeting civilians neighborhoods. Targeting missile batteries instead of civilian neighborhoods is morally superior, yes.
Originally posted by citizen:
Is this better? Hezbollah shoots off missiles some of which hit civilian targets (it's my understanding that most of Hezbollah's rockets don't hit any target, unless you call a bush in the middle of the desert a target), Israel targets civilians.
But the point of my post to Ferm was not to justify anything Israel is doing, but to demonstrate, which I think I did quite effectively, how lopsided his comments are. I did this to provide support for why I called him anti-Israeli, not to discuss the moral equivalency between Hezbollah and Israel, which I'm pretty sure would probably be like trying to talk to Hitler about "good" Jews. In the end, Ferm doesn't seem to believe that there is such a thing as a good Israeli, therefore the only thing you'll get from him is that Israel is just a bunch of land-stealing baby-killers. There's not a lot of reason to carry on that conversation.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:58 PM
Quote:Except what I'm seeing is civilians being blown up with survivors saying there were no missile batteries there. Sure they could be lying, but so could Israel, or their intelligence/ballistics could be wrong and they're not putting the energy into checking it. Either way I'm seeing a lot of dead innocent civilians but not so many blown up missile launchers. If Hezbollah is firing from the positions Israel attacks, they’ve obviously usually packed up and left by the time the counterattack arrives, so what exactly is the point in counter attacking?
Israel targets Missile batteries, not civilians. Hezbollah targets civilians. Targeting missile batteries instead of civilian neighborhoods is morally superior, yes.
But anyway I thought Hezbollah couldn't target its missiles?
To be honest Israel has targeted civilians, and frankly I think all the players in that region are as bad as each other, it's just one of them has US military backing.
If Israel are the good guys, and we know they have overwhelming military superiority, I find it hard to believe that there's not some other way of defending against missile attacks that isn't levelling tower blocks.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:32 PM
Quote:According to the UN, Hezbollah is firing missiles from within civilian populated areas. Footage of missile launches show, quite clearly, missile plume barrages emerging from civilian neighborhoods. There is no doubt that Hezbollah is shooting missiles from within civilian regions. Katyusha missiles are fired from truck or trailer mounted batteries, which means that in many cases Hezbollah is firing them and then relocating. So I’m sure that in some cases (maybe even a lot) Israeli counter-attacks are landing in areas where there are no batteries (anymore), that doesn’t mean that there weren't batteries there or that Israeli wasn’t targeting batteries. And even if they hit the batteries there is likely to be a lot of civilian casualties, which of course immediately starts turning world sentiment against them. Why would they intentionally target civilians? They have nothing to gain from that action. Just the civilian casualties they are creating are already causing them to loose the propaganda war.
Originally posted by citizen:
Except what I'm seeing is civilians being blown up with survivors saying there were no missile batteries there. Sure they could be lying, but so could Israel, or their intelligence/ballistics could be wrong and they're not putting the energy into checking it. Either way I'm seeing a lot of dead innocent civilians but not so many blown up missile launchers. If Hezbollah is firing from the positions Israel attacks, they’ve obviously usually packed up and left by the time the counterattack arrives, so what exactly is the point in counter attacking?
Quote:Katyusha missiles are Russian built 1950’s technology. They have no guidance system to speak up, so you can’t point them at anything smaller then a neighborhood and hope to hit anything. And considering that these missiles are, on average, falling on Israeli civilian neighborhoods, it seems quite clear that they are trying to hit civilian neighborhoods. Many people aren’t as likely to blame Hezbollah for killing civilians, for some twisted reason, so they don’t really have the same PR problem that Israel has. In fact, the more civilians that get killed, especially while targeting Katyusha missile batteries, will create more hostility towards Israel. So more civilian deaths is actually good for Hezbollah.
Originally posted by citizen:
But anyway I thought Hezbollah couldn't target its missiles?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:37 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Except what I'm seeing is civilians being blown up with survivors saying there were no missile batteries there. Sure they could be lying,
I'm sure they would all agree that there are no missile batteries in Lebanon.
Personally I think Isreal should target all the missile batteries that are out in the open rather the deliberately passing them by to attack the civilian areas located so far away from Hezbollah's open and obvious activity. Likewise Hezbollah should be praised for managing to find with so few resources all the Isreali military locations randomnly hidden in towns and villages throughout northern Isreal.
Also Isreal should stop using the precision munitions which randomly kill the innocent and start using the unguided WW2 era technology weapons that Hezbollah uses to strike so effectively with absolutley no collateral damage.
And perhaps a better solution is for Isreali commandoes to enter Iran or Syria and kidnap some of their soldiers. That will bring about a peaceful resolution to the crisis. Especially if they just start some random cross border artillery attacks and missile strikes at Syrian cities.
Ok, I'm being sarcastic. Seriously though, Isreal should think about killing its own people, since the death of Jews is ok under international standard and seems to be very effective, at least politically, for Hezabollah.
H
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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:40 PM
Good to see you agree with me Hero, Israel and Hezbollah, as bad as each other.
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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:52 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Hezbollah shoots off missiles some of which hit civilian targets (it's my understanding that most of Hezbollah's rockets don't hit any target, unless you call a bush in the middle of the desert a target), Israel targets civilians.
So we should cut Hezbollah some slack because they have crappy missiles? They 'intend' to kill innocent civilians and damage infrastructure. Because some of their missiles hit in the middle of the desert, do you consider those warning shots? The reason Hezbollah fires an average of 200 missiles a day is because they know how haphazard the missiles are and are trying to inflict as much damage as possible.
As for Israel targeting civilians, I think that is not their intention. I recently heard that Hezbollah has begun to fire missiles at night. This is a risky tactic for Hezbollah as the IDF can more easily target the launch site. If said launch site is in a civilian area, who ultimately is to blame for any civilian deaths that occur?
De-lurking to stir stuff up.
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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:53 PM
Quote:Which still begs my question, if there aren't any missiles there by the time Israel counter attacks what is the point?
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Katyusha missiles are fired from truck or trailer mounted batteries, which means that in many cases Hezbollah is firing them and then relocating. So I’m sure that in some cases (maybe even a lot) Israeli counter-attacks are landing in areas where there are no batteries (anymore), that doesn’t mean that there weren't batteries there or that Israeli wasn’t targeting batteries.
Quote:You'd have to ask them, Israeli troops have targeted civilians before, I've also seen plenty of accounts from Israeli citizens that seemed to suggest the popular view was that they should just kill them all (in reference to Palestinians), you could say that it was a biased source, but I don't think so.
Why would they intentionally target civilians?
Quote:Katyusha missiles first went into service in 1939, they were used during the battle of Stalingrad, but it depends on what variant Hezbollah is using.
Katyusha missiles are Russian built 1950’s technology. They have no guidance system to speak up, so you can’t point them at anything smaller then a neighborhood and hope to hit anything.
Quote:It's my understanding that these missiles are, on average, falling in the middle of the desert.
And considering that these missiles are, on average, falling on Israeli civilian neighborhoods, it seems quite clear that they are trying to hit civilian neighborhoods.
Quote:Because Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation, Israel isn't supposed to be and when they're killing far more civilians than the Terrorists they're fighting yeah, they get bad press.
Many people aren’t as likely to blame Hezbollah for killing civilians, for some twisted reason, so they don’t really have the same PR problem that Israel has.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:58 PM
Quote:I don’t know that Israel has targeted civilians, and I don’t think you do either. I don’t know that I would put it beyond them, but without a doubt I don’t think Israel is as bad as Hezbollah or Hamas, by a huge margin. Hezbollah and Hamas routinely target civilians. Israel, if they do, they do it rarely. Most of the time that Israel is accused of targeting civilians, they were actually targeting something else, and civilians got in the way.
Originally posted by citizen:
To be honest Israel has targeted civilians, and frankly I think all the players in that region are as bad as each other, it's just one of them has US military backing.
If Israel are the good guys, and we know they have overwhelming military superiority, I find it hard to believe that there's not some other way of defending against missile attacks that isn't levelling tower blocks.
I’m sure that you want to believe that there is some other military action to counter artillery barrages other then counter-attacking with artillery. It seems very World-War-II-ish. But at the present time, there is no way to shoot down a Katyusha missile. We are making improvements in that area. We can shoot down larger missiles, like Scuds, with the PAC system, but the technology is not that refined yet to shoot down small SRBMs. But the US Senate Appropriations Committee has just issued funding to developing interceptor technology for these SRBM batteries. So maybe someday Israel will be able to respond to these kinds of attacks without bombing neighborhood. And when that day comes and if they are still bombing neighborhoods, I might switch to your side.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 2:03 PM
Quote:That is a legitimate criticism of Israeli tactics and maybe someday I’ll tell you what I think about that, when this discussion evolves to a maturity level that allows me to criticize Israeli military tactics without falling in line with the anti-Israeli/anti-Semitic types. Right now, if all we can do is blame Israel for killing babies with every civilian death, then we probably can’t get into a technical criticism of Israeli military tactics.
Originally posted by citizen:
Which still begs my question, if there aren't any missiles there by the time Israel counter attacks what is the point?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 2:05 PM
Quote:Israel has killed innocent civilians before and people just turn a blind eye because Israel is being attacked by terrorists. Why should we cut Israel slack because they have better equipment, why can we excuse Israel from killing many more civilians than Hezbollah?
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
So we should cut Hezbollah some slack because they have crappy missiles? They 'intend' to kill innocent civilians and damage infrastructure.
Quote:During the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland would it have been acceptable for the British to level an Irish village if they believed a terrorist responcible for a bombing may have been there?
If said launch site is in a civilian area, who ultimately is to blame for any civilian deaths that occur?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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