A question for those of you who support Israel....

POSTED BY: STDOUBT
UPDATED: Sunday, March 8, 2026 23:09
VIEWED: 8531
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STDOUBT

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 10:34 AM

Is defending Israel worth a third world war, and
if so, why?

I am only interested in answers without any religious baggage. I don't care to wrestle with
"end-times" ~rapture~ fantasy-land bullsqueeze.
I'm talking real-world pragmatic reasons why it would benefit the USA to fully mobilize in a world-wide military effort to preserve the state of Israel.

Bonus question:
Why is anyone who criticizes Israel, its military or its actions labelled an anti-semite?

It won't take much thought to guess where I stand, but I'd really appreciate a cogent reason for the USA to continue to support Israel.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 7:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by STDOUBT:
Is defending Israel worth a third world war, and
if so, why?

I am only interested in answers without any religious baggage. I don't care to wrestle with
"end-times" ~rapture~ fantasy-land bullsqueeze.
I'm talking real-world pragmatic reasons why it would benefit the USA to fully mobilize in a world-wide military effort to preserve the state of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Quote:

Establishment of the State

Ben-Gurion pronounces the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948 in Tel Aviv.Main article: Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel
In 1947, following increasing levels of violence together with unsuccessful efforts to reconcile the Jewish and Arab populations, the British government decided to withdraw from the Palestine Mandate. The UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan dividing the territory into two states, with the Jewish area consisting of roughly 55% of the land, and the Arab area roughly 45%. Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.

Immediately following the adoption of the Partition Plan by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947, David Ben-Gurion tentatively accepted the partition, while the Arab League rejected it. Scattered attacks on civilians of both sides soon turned into widespread fighting between Arabs and Jews, this civil war being the first "phase" of the 1948 War of Independence.

The State of Israel was proclaimed on May 14, 1948, one day before the expiry of the Palestine Mandate.

Israel was admitted as a member of the United Nations on May 11, 1949.

Israel was 'made' by the UN. Should the UN and all member countries simply wash their hands of the affair? Or should 'they' try to help solve the problem which 'they' helped create?

Quote:

Bonus question:
Why is anyone who criticizes Israel, its military or its actions labelled an anti-semite?

Good question. What does present day Israel and their policies have to do with the Akkadians or the Phoenicians?

We should do away with that word as it is constantly being improperly used.

Quote:

It won't take much thought to guess where I stand, but I'd really appreciate a cogent reason for the USA to continue to support Israel.

Hopefully this counts as a cogent reason.

De-lurking to stir stuff up.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 7:47 PM

What makes you think that we're not in a 3rd (hot) world war already ? I agree w/ former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, that the Islamo-radicals are on the move to take over the entire middle east, and only a few of us have sense enough to realize it yet.

Bonus - Israel is defending itself. It withdrew from S.Lebanon 6 yrs ago, and still the border skirmishes continue. It was Israel who was attacked this time, it's soldiers attacked in their OWN land, and kidnapped. Hezbollah has ignored UN orders to disarm, and the Gov't of Lebanon does nothing.

Same w/ the Gaza strip. As soon as Israel backed out of there, the Pals simply used that newly gained territory to fire rockets deeper into Israel.

I'm not sure about the lable of being an 'anti semite',but those who don't undestand what is happening are showing themelves to be naive and uninformed, IMO.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 8:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by STDOUBT:
Is defending Israel worth a third world war, and
if so, why?

Was defending Poland worth the Second World War? If you say defending Israel is not worth it, then are you prepared for a second Holocaust?

That seems like a lame excuse, since there’s no clear evidence that World War III would result from defending Israel and many believe World War III began with 9/ll. In fact, I would say that it is more likely to result from not defending Israel. If all these heavily armed Iranian backed terrorist groups know that no one will come to Israel’s aid, then they will be far more likely to respond with much greater force, which in turn will force Israel to respond with much greater force, and often Israel has shown restraint out of respect for the US political defense of Israel. So if its war, you’re worried about. The only way to prevent it is to aggressively defend Israel. Something the UN has failed to do, and that is a large part of the reason for this current war.

And as far as anti-Semitism is concerned, I don’t use the term to refer to people who simply criticize Israel or its military. Anti-Semitism refers to a fundamental hatred of Jews, as was expressed by the Nazis and many terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. I have no doubt that a lot of the anti-Israeli sentiment expressed on this board by some of you and by many in Europe and the US is indeed anti-Semitism. I don’t think that it disappeared with the fall of the Nazis; I still think it’s quit strong, as it has been for 2000 years, but people are cautious to avoid comparisons with the Nazis, since it’s pretty much an end to their credibility. However, I like to be fair, and unless I can identify a fundamental hatred of Jews within the context of someone’s argument, I usually will simply stick to anti-Israeli, because I believe that one can disagree with Israel’s foreign policy and not want to see Jews murdered.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

DUKKATI

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 9:55 PM

In answer to the first question:
They have been nice to us so we should protect them.
Sorta like a brother who looks out for his sister.

They are an ally to freedom loving countries.
I think they are the only working Democracy happening in the middle east.

Lastly, I think the world has to many people who believe freedom is OWED to them. These people should be put in the front so we can get the most out of them... i.e. After they have tried to tell the enemy ,who doesn't give a crap about freedom, that "we really don't want to fight you we are peace loving humans that will do what ever you say until we feel you are no longer serving our interest then we will start talking bad about you over the Internet..unless you wont let us have the Internet then we will smile in your face and use snail mail..and if you wont let us have snail mail we will pout." When they are mowed down it will create a wall high enough to hide fighting personnel who will get the job done.

OK let me take a stab at the bonus question.

Because that's what some who does that is.

Any more Questions?
==============================================

I've been through the system.
It don't work.

NVGHOSTRIDER

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 10:05 PM

Any action to save life, of which the dead does not exceed the the lives saved is a victory, right?
Technically, yes. Poitically and religiosly, no.

Ultimately religion and polotics are the same creature.

Not to say that Israel is right. Their retalliation has always been at least two fold worse than the initial attack.

But if you had been bullied on the schoolyard, despite whatever consequences were given to the bully, wouldn't you wish for the same.

As for a concrete reason the US should continue its support for Israel, Money. It is beneficial for the US to utelize their contacts in Israel for any buisness dealings east of the Med. Though Economic growth is booming in Eastern Europe, their governments and markets are either too young or too corrupt to deal with. Try trading commodities with Gangsters and see where it gets you. At least the people in Eastern Europe can pay too much for the food they produce rather than starving under communist rule. Doing too much buisness without Israel as a middle man can not only start (or sustain a current) World War, it can ultimately destroy economies around the world. That leaves no hope of recovery for anyone.

Israel has forged its own double edged blade using fuel supplied by the US. Is it right to fight a war over money. Probably not. How 'bout religion. Mmm, no. But if you look at the underlying reasons, some of it is about survival of the region. Just wish there was no need for a war to sustain it.

DREAMTROVE

Friday, August 11, 2006 5:15 AM

No

I support Israel, Israel's right to Israel, not Israel's right to palestine and lebanon.

But I also recognize that Israel is qualitatively different from Poland. Israel is an immigrant population, entirely. Everyone is either first or second generation, I doubt there are many third. All would be called immigrant in the US. It's not a native population. I'm against them leaving if they don't have to, but to stop a third world war, I'd support a relocation to somewhere else. If the muslims could not bear the beachhead colony that is Israel, then Israel could be relocated to somewhere else holy, or even habitable. The Jewish religion, historically speaking, as a monotheistic cult, was born at Mount Sinai. The Hebrews came from Saudia Arabia, From there they came from Iraq, from their Kuwait, and from there, culturally either India or Srilanka. But you could really put them anywhere. I'd be happy to give them New Jersey Or even Long Island.

But if this were the deal that would be struck, I don't think it would be fair. Israel should be compensated, and the arabs would have to buy Israel back from them. The people displaced from a new israel could be compensated as well. But it's really not a homeland, it's a colony. White Zimbabweans are more native to Zimbabwe than Israelis are to Israel. Hell, the Chinese are more native to New York, or Kansas for that matter, than Israelis are to Israel. But it's their home, and if someone is going to emminant domain it, they have to pay for it. In dollars, not blood.

DUKKATI

Friday, August 11, 2006 12:53 PM

I almost forgot my solution for over crowded prisons.
Along with all them that's think freedom is free put them "GANGSTAS" and the rest up front also then we shall see who's "BAAAD". They be to busy trying to keep their pants up to fight soooooo....

That should solve the over crowded prison issue.
_________________________________________________

Well ... I know my knower works and I don't need a college degree or spend thousands of dollars for some unhappy professor to tell me why he thinks we came from pond scum. I guess it just boils down to the freedom of choice given to us for free. You choose to believe or you don't.

What strikes me as funny is people who don't believe in God can be convinced He exists, thus they then know Satan exists, and BONUS knowledge is God is good and Satan is evil. Even a Satanist knows who Jesus and his Father are.
BUT>>>...You will never make a person who knows God ... truly believe God does not exist.

I've been through the system.
It don't work.

AURAPTOR

Friday, August 11, 2006 1:10 PM

Quote:
No

I support Israel, Israel's right to Israel, not Israel's right to palestine and lebanon.

You really contradict yourself then. There is no Palestine, and Israel never has wanted a right to Lebanon. Only to eliminate the terrorist outfit that is Hezbollah.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CAUSAL

Friday, August 11, 2006 1:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DukKati:
I almost forgot my solution for over crowded prisons.
Along with all them that's think freedom is free put them "GANGSTAS" and the rest up front also then we shall see who's "BAAAD". They be to busy trying to keep their pants up to fight soooooo....

That should solve the over crowded prison issue.
_________________________________________________

Well ... I know my knower works and I don't need a college degree or spend thousands of dollars for some unhappy professor to tell me why he thinks we came from pond scum. I guess it just boils down to the freedom of choice given to us for free. You choose to believe or you don't.

What strikes me as funny is people who don't believe in God can be convinced He exists, thus they then know Satan exists, and BONUS knowledge is God is good and Satan is evil. Even a Satanist knows who Jesus and his Father are.
BUT>>>...You will never make a person who knows God ... truly believe God does not exist.

I've been through the system.
It don't work.

Wow. Just--wow. I didn't know it was possible to pack that much confusing into one post (not to mention the thinly veiled racial stereotyping). Also, bonus points for your incredibly poor logic with that whole God-Satan-good-evil thing. Whoa.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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