Zoe?

POSTED BY: traveler
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 8, 2006 19:19
VIEWED: 6337
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LISSA37

Sunday, August 6, 2006 10:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
There was a theory going around a while back that each member of the crew represents a part of himself that Mal lost during the war. Kaylee being his innocence, Book his faith, Wash his sense of fun etc. I'd wondered what part of Mal Zoe was supposed to represent. I thought it might be loyalty, but the truth is even as a thief Mal is pretty loyal. Heck, it's why he reacted so violently to Jayne's betrayal in Ariel.

I'm starting to think Zoe might represent conviction. She never doubts for a second that she did the right thing fighting the war, staying by Mal's side, staying on board Serenity etc. When Mal makes a bad decision Zoe is the first - and sometimes the only - person to speak up. She's also the first to support him when he makes a decision she thinks is right. Everybody remembers the scene in War Stories where Niska forced her to choose between Mal and Wash and she instantly chose Wash; no hesitation, no agonising over what to do, she just made the choice.

Zoe is also a soldier, first and last. She calls Mal "Sir", her tactics and skills are military, not criminal. Zoe seems to be the person who keeps Mal in touch with his Browncoat past and stops him sliding completely into a criminal life.

I know that's all very ineloquent, I haven't thought most of this through. I'm still trying to figure Zoe out.

"Ineloquent"? Are you kidding me? I really like what you said here. Furthermore, I think the way you said it was just fine.

I like the whole theory about each crew member representing something Mal lost and I especially like your opinion on how Zoe fits that theory. Zoe is hard to place and a challenge to understand at times, but I think your thoughts about her make sense.

Now, you've got me thinking about some of the other characters, though... hmmm.

Credit for screencaps belongs to: http://still-flying.net/ and http://www.leavemethewhite.com/caps/index.php
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

TEACHDAIRE

Sunday, August 6, 2006 11:02 PM

The way I see it is this way;

Mal an officer, granted his rank in the Independant's army was Sergeant, but with the amount of troops he was in command of (4000 at one point during the battle of Serenity valley) he was an officer in all but name.

Zoe was his second in command, that makes her equivalent to a sergeant major (gunnery sergeant or master sergeant for you americans out there), and she continues to fulfill this role during the years following the war.

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For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die along, unremembered and unsung...

TRAVELER

Sunday, August 6, 2006 11:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lissa37:
Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
There was a theory going around a while back that each member of the crew represents a part of himself that Mal lost during the war. Kaylee being his innocence, Book his faith, Wash his sense of fun etc. I'd wondered what part of Mal Zoe was supposed to represent. I thought it might be loyalty, but the truth is even as a thief Mal is pretty loyal. Heck, it's why he reacted so violently to Jayne's betrayal in Ariel.

I'm starting to think Zoe might represent conviction. She never doubts for a second that she did the right thing fighting the war, staying by Mal's side, staying on board Serenity etc. When Mal makes a bad decision Zoe is the first - and sometimes the only - person to speak up. She's also the first to support him when he makes a decision she thinks is right. Everybody remembers the scene in War Stories where Niska forced her to choose between Mal and Wash and she instantly chose Wash; no hesitation, no agonising over what to do, she just made the choice.

Zoe is also a soldier, first and last. She calls Mal "Sir", her tactics and skills are military, not criminal. Zoe seems to be the person who keeps Mal in touch with his Browncoat past and stops him sliding completely into a criminal life.

I know that's all very ineloquent, I haven't thought most of this through. I'm still trying to figure Zoe out.

"Ineloquent"? Are you kidding me? I really like what you said here. Furthermore, I think the way you said it was just fine.

I like the whole theory about each crew member representing something Mal lost and I especially like your opinion on how Zoe fits that theory. Zoe is hard to place and a challenge to understand at times, but I think your thoughts about her make sense.

Now, you've got me thinking about some of the other characters, though... hmmm.

Credit for screencaps belongs to: http://still-flying.net/ and http://www.leavemethewhite.com/caps/index.php
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I can clearly see Zoe in her coat as Mal shows her Serenity for the first. And then its gone as we return to the present.

Thank you for your comments to DESKTOPHIPPIE.
I also feel she was eloquent.

I always felt that each character represented a part of our human nature. And Mal losing this faith certainly can cause him to lose even more of those qualities that make us human. In "Serenity" they tell us it is six years after the battle, so I suspect the others have already had an effect on Mal. He has a sense of family with his crew. An important part of returning to that human need for companionship.

I always laugh at the fact Mal bought Serenity to run away. To be free he calls it. But he ends up with this family. Inara says it in "HEART OF GOLD" about getting to close. But the need to interact with others is what teaches us. Helps us mature. Mal reacting to Jayne's betratal was to get through Jayne's thick skull that they are family and Simon and River are apart of it.

As I look back on the different episodes I can see Zoe has shared in the influence.

I'm bad at quotes so I'll leave that to others, but in the train job, more than once Zoe speaks her mind to Mal. She does call him sir but she is not afraid to confront Mal when she feels he is wrong.

When I started this thread I had some notions about Zoe, but you have opened my eyes to see Zoe more clearly.

ZZETTA13

Sunday, August 6, 2006 11:34 PM

This is a very interesting thread. I am enjoying it very much.

Everyone has made some good points about Zoe being second in command or Mals #1. She has the complete trust of the ships captain and her decisions are solid. She leads the way when Serenitys crew returns to retrieve the captain from Niskas space station.

One of the things that really made an impression on me was in the OoG eps. During Mals recovery when he awakes at first and finds the whole crew has returned to the Firefly. Zoe," I take full responsibility sir. It won't happen again." Mal," Good, and I'm grateful."

That is such a great scene. Remember Mal hadn't called them back to say the ship was fixed. That it was alright to come back. What Zoes words where really saying were, care for you sir. You are our commander. We'll either live together or we'll die that way but it will be as a family. The Serenity family. Remember each one of them came back. Not one of them questioned her decision on this.

Z

TEACHDAIRE

Sunday, August 6, 2006 11:36 PM

Yeah, but Jayne wanted to return earlier, but as he said "Inara's done something to her shuttle".

-------------------------------------------------
For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die along, unremembered and unsung...

ZZETTA13

Sunday, August 6, 2006 11:38 PM

Double post

TERRI

Monday, August 7, 2006 8:29 PM

Somebody said something about Wash and Mal's run in with Niska, and I agree. Zoe didn't take Wash because he was her husband. Sh took him because she knew that he would break before Mal did. She was thinking about time, not about who she loved more or less. She knew that she would be coming back for whoever got left behind, and so she needed to have as much time as possible. I'm a hardcore Zoe fan, btw. As far as her realtionship to Mal, it's like well, I figure, she cares about him, that goes without saying. They went through a lot during the war, and that bonds people, but their bond is more than that. They're friends, real friends that can trust and depend on each other, and anyone then and now knows that's a rarity. Sometimes Mal does crazy things, I think that Zoe is there as the balance to all that. I dunno if Zoe wouldn't be a good leader, I truly think she would. She cares for the crew and the ship, just as much as Mal. I just really like the fact that they reall yare just friends and no more than that. The platonic-ness(yeah I know it's not a word) of it all really makes me appreciate. It really is a mutual friendship between two equals. And even though Zoe calls Mal sir, he values and respects her opinion.

SPACEANJL

Monday, August 7, 2006 8:43 PM

Zoe was career military - born on a spaceship, family all military too. So I think she has that sense of structure, maybe that need for structure. Mal is her commander, she'll follow him, completely loyal. Maybe she is sometimes his conscience.

(This is from the OVC, Gina's reading of the character, and stuff from the shooting scripts.)

Hard fact here - she lost Wash, but she will not lay down and die because of it. That is not who she is. And I think it is the ship and the crew who will get her through it - she will hold together to keep them together.

Wash must have been something so different, and so outside her experience, that he got under her guard. Light and fun and laughter after the horror of war. Though the lip ferret had to go.

XITWOUND117

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 5:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SerenityinScotland:
Quote:
Originally posted by xitwound117:
I think "female version of Mal" is a quite a bit off the mark. Zoe is hardcore, Mal is not. Zoe hasn't changed since the war, Mal changed a hell of alot. Mal is also a hell of alot funnier than Zoe. I think he's more of a leader than Zoe is, as well.

I would have said it was the other way round - Mal is the one who hasn't changed much since Serenity Valley whereas Zoe has moved on (at least before the BDM). I don't think this is any clearer than in their clothes. In 'Out of Gas', they are both still wearing their browncoats in the flashback, but Mal is still wearing his nowwhile Zoe has stopped wearing hers. I wonder if she would start wearing it again cos the Alliance where kinda responsible for Wash's death....

What? At Serenity Valley Mal had faith, religion, less distrust of people. He had a belief, a purpose. His coat represents that to him. To Zoe the coat is just a coat that represents the military faction she fought for. That's why Mal wears his and Zoe doesn't.

And plus, Mal lost all of his purpose, direction, faith, religion, etc after Serenity Valley and the war. Zoe is pretty much the same. The only change is the now departed husband really.

Quote:
Originally posted by Terri:
Somebody said something about Wash and Mal's run in with Niska, and I agree. Zoe didn't take Wash because he was her husband. Sh took him because she knew that he would break before Mal did. She was thinking about time, not about who she loved more or less. She knew that she would be coming back for whoever got left behind, and so she needed to have as much time as possible. I'm a hardcore Zoe fan, btw. ... I dunno if Zoe wouldn't be a good leader, I truly think she would. She cares for the crew and the ship, just as much as Mal.

I don't believe for a second that she picked Wash because he would break sooner. She did seem to, when talking to wash on-board the shuttle, not expect to return for Mal. I'm not saying she wouldn't have had Wash not initiated it, but she didn't have a plan to at the time. I mean, wouldn't she have said "We're going to get him" rather than Niska will take "days" to torture him? She picked the person she most wanted safe.

Anyway, caring about the crew doesn't necessarily make someone a good leader at all. There's no question that she cares about the crew and the ship, but she just seems like a follower. She seems most at home carrying out a task rather than coming up with what to do and how to do it.

INDIGOSTARBLASTER

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 3:44 PM

It seems to me that Zoe is a born second-in-command because she's extremely competent in what she does (in serving as a sounding board, in carrying out a tactic, etc.), but she isn't driven by an overarching goal or purpose. She's really balanced, in and of herself. She isn't a leader because there isn't any place she really needs to go.

Mal, on the other hand, has -- and needs -- the purpose he forged himself after the Independents lost the war. He can't ensure freedom for the border planets, but he can try his darnedest to ensure freedom for himself and his crew. It's to that end he decides to buy Serenity and make a go of it as a free-lance transport vessel.

I imagine that when the war ended, Zoe's career in the military she had signed up with ended rather ignominiously. She almost certainly wouldn't have had a pension, and probably really didn't feel like signing up with the Alliance military (assuming they would have let her). She doesn't seem to have any family.

I don't think she has a burning desire for freedom; if Mal had just drifted off after the war I imagine she would have settled down somewhere on the border, gotten a job, been reasonably competent at it but not particularly ambitious about it, and turned her mind to starting a family.

But since Mal did have a purpose, and at least an idea of how to make a livelihood out of it, and since they did have that bond, she decided to go with Mal and stay his second-in-command (and good thing, too, 'cause I don't think Mal could have made it without her).

Just my 2 cents,

Indigo S.

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