Handy grammar guide

POSTED BY: PhoenixRose
UPDATED: Friday, August 17, 2007 18:08
VIEWED: 25478
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COZEN

Sunday, August 6, 2006 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

And yes, semicolons. I've always thought of them as something like a "soft" period. They can be used to break up run-on sentances and other handy things like that. I love them...

Although I'm certain semicolons exist for a good reason, I've had a hard time accepting their necessity. To wit, I'm with Vonnegut:

“Do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you’ve been to college.”
-- K.V., A Man Without a Country

{edited to add....} "Rules can only take us so far. Even good rules." ibid. In the context of this thread, I would apply that statement this way: proper grammar is a good thing, but secondary to getting the message to the reader.

Fun thread... for a geek.

***
Huh: an incomplete citing of a source. *Gives up all literary pretensions.*

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, August 6, 2006 1:06 PM

Um, I think grammar is important to properly convey a message to a reader. Sometimes I can't understand what is meant because the structure is so incomprehensible. Most of the time I can work it out, true, but it can take several readings, or the initial reading just doesn't go smooth because I keep pulling up short at an error and going "Do they mean... They must. Okay." It interrupts the flow of stories in particular, but sometimes it's a problem in simple posts.
And just for the record, I haven't been to college. I also am not getting all that in-depth here; there are things that can't be summed up easily and maybe aren't as important as actually using the right word. Usage is something everyone should know for any language they speak, and so I don't really consider it a geeky pursuit.
Please take your backhanded 'compliments' elsewhere. Thank you.

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

COZEN

Sunday, August 6, 2006 1:22 PM

Wasn't meant as an insult. I'm very sorry you took it that way. I thought I could contribute to a lively, if somewhat insular, debate. I guess this is one of those cases where I was poking a little fun, and no one but me got the joke. I suppose my choice of emoticons weren't good enough for the task.

Again: my apologies. I won't bother you again.

MSG

Sunday, August 6, 2006 2:47 PM

I see we are having a moment:)Excellent grammer lesson. I give it an

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, August 7, 2006 10:06 AM

Oh look, I've been teacher elf mooned... Yay?

Hey, I found a site called "The Apostrophe Protection Society". It's got some good and simple info on proper use of apostrophes. http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, September 1, 2006 11:40 AM

I'm sad my thread is dying. I'm sorry I got snarky and put my back up, but that was nearly a month ago! I'm better now!
And I did send an apology and explination to cozen, but I don't know if he even got it.

A family is a place where minds come in contact with one another. If these minds love one another the home will be as beautiful as a flower garden. But if these minds get out of harmony with one another it is like a storm that plays havoc with them. - Gautama Siddharta

FELLOWTRAVELER

Friday, September 1, 2006 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cozen:

Although I'm certain semicolons exist for a good reason, I've had a hard time accepting their necessity. To wit, I'm with Vonnegut:

“Do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you’ve been to college.”

-- K.V., A Man Without a Country

Now, that's funny!

LVS2READ

Friday, September 1, 2006 1:41 PM

Great thread, PR!

You missed my biggest pet peeve (I think--didn't catch it as I scrolled down): using 'alright' instead of 'all right'. I don't know, maybe I'm old school and 'alright' is becoming accepted, but it still jars me every time I see it. Already is a word, alright is not. At least in my book.

Here's wishing this thread a long and useful life!

"I love my captain."

MAL4PREZ

Friday, September 1, 2006 1:44 PM

Hey now, I love the semicolon! Lots of short sentences bother me. Don't get me wrong - it works great for Vonnegut. He's sarcastic. Makes fun of a lot of stuff. All the breaks work for his style. They make it tongue in cheek.

Hi-ho.

(You've read slapstick, right?)

Myself, I want my fiction to flow. I want the writing and my voice to be invisible, so the reader will forget that I am telling the story. They should see the characters and the settings and not be aware of me at all. I am a window, see how I... um, never mind.

I find that sentence lengths and the pauses between phrases are a HUGE part of this. Too many hard stops ruin it. They kill the flow. Break up continuity. Get kind of dull to read too. Unless you're Kurt Vonnegut and you're speaking in your own voice which needs short setences. (OK, it's his narrator's voice, but he admits it is often some fictionalization of himself.)

Hope this doesn't come off ranty. I felt a moment of OMG I must get rid of all my semicolons cause Kurt said so! But then I changed my mind. It's all about the style you want. Semicolons provide a shorter break than periods; they are flowy and I like that.

As for what PR said above, I second the need for clarity and less errors! You should never have to go back over a phrase to figure out what the hell the writer means. That kills the illusion!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, September 1, 2006 1:48 PM

Hmmmmm, that's an interesting one.
From dictionary.com:
—Usage note: The form alright as a one-word spelling of the phrase all right in all of its senses probably arose by analogy with such words as already and altogether. Although alright is a common spelling in written dialogue and in other types of informal writing, all right is used in more formal, edited writing.
adj : nonstandard usage adv 1: used to reinforces an assertion; "it's expensive all right" (syn: all right, without doubt) 2: sentence-initial expression of agreement [syn: very well, fine, all right, OK] 3: in a satisfactory or adequate manner; "she'll do okay on her own"; "held up all right under pressure"; ('alright' is a nonstandard variant of 'all right')
So for them writing stories, this is something to watch for. However, informal usage seems fine. And our Big Damn Heroes use informal speech a lot of the time, so would this be how we'd put it in their dialogue? Or should it be avoided altogether?
Good one, Lvs2read!

*edit* Mal4Prez, you put things so well!

A family is a place where minds come in contact with one another. If these minds love one another the home will be as beautiful as a flower garden. But if these minds get out of harmony with one another it is like a storm that plays havoc with them. - Gautama Siddharta

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